4.5" pockets on a table

haystj said:

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want a table with 4.5" pockets.

Tighter pockets will not make you a better pool player. If I play golf with professional grade equipment (tour blades for those in the know) it will not make me better at golf but it will sure as heck make the game tougher and less enjoyable.

I guess if a person plays top level pool and wants the added challenge of a smaller target I can understand it,,,, , but seriously, how many people play at that speed?

For the general masses, I say to heck with a more challenging table,, this game is tough enough with 5 inch pockets,, why make it more difficult?

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Taking away the rare exception of purpose-built one pocket tables and gaffe tables used for gambling, 4.5" pockets are what you'll find on tables in public places. Feeling like a hero at home with 5" pockets isn't going to do you any favors when it comes to competing on good equipment.
If you're buying a table to actually play at home and get better, a 4.5" pocket that accepts well hit shots and rejects what it should is worth the price of having it done properly by a professional.

DallasHopps said:

Taking away the rare exception of purpose-built one pocket tables and gaffe tables used for gambling, 4.5" pockets are what you'll find on tables in public places. Feeling like a hero at home with 5" pockets isn't going to do you any favors when it comes to competing on good equipment.
If you're buying a table to actually play at home and get better, a 4.5" pocket that accepts well hit shots and rejects what it should is worth the price of having it done properly by a professional.

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Ahhhh, good information,,, I was under the impression that a normal Pool Hall Gold Crown was 5 inch pockets. Thanks for clearing that up.

Outre Bron said:

Hello Friends,

Does it generally cost MORE to have 4.5 pockets on a table that's getting new rubber? Or is there something Im not considering here?

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First of all, let me break this down for you a little bit more. You bought a Brunswick Medalist 9ft pool table, built back in time when the Brunswick Super Speed cushions were 1 1/8th" wide, to which are no longer in production today. Today's Super Speed cushions are 1 1/4" wide and have a larger foot print to bond the cushions to the sub-rail, meaning they overhang the bottom of the sub-rails, not to mention decrease the playing surface by 1/4" overall, and the don't share the exact same nose height of the cushions being replaced. Now to the pockets. The factory pockets on your rails have wider miter angles, meaning the pocket angles are turned out to about 143 degrees on both sides of the corner pockets in order to get the 5" pocket opening, maybe even more. To compound the pockets even more, the left and right sides of the corner pockets don't match in miter angles, right side is usually wider than the left. Side pockets, because there is no pocket casting, is cut out in the rail itself creating the side.pocket but, because of not risking cutting to much strength out of the rails by cutting out to much for the side pocket to be in the correct ratio to the corner pockets, the miter angles are turned way out to make them 5 1/2" wide at the mouth, around 105 degrees, and it's because they're turned out so far that when shooting balls into the side pockets with any kind of real angle to the shot, the object balls hit the pocket facing and bounce back in the same direction the ball was coming from, so....to sum up the whole situation, adding facings to tighten the pockets just makes the table play so bad that no one wants to play on it. Then, hiring someone to do the work correctly don't mean you're going to get what you think you're going to get when you pay for the job to be done....because almost all the table mechanics working on pool tables today don't really know much more about working on pool tables than installing cloth, but have no problem in taking your money at a cheaper cost than someone would Hargett you that DOES know what they're doing, and if you're more concerned about how much you'll have to spend, you will take cheap over quality every day of the week, yet you won't spend a dime on a junk cue, because that's where quality counts to most....after all, abandoning pool table is just a pool table, right?

Outre Bron said:

Im spending more on the move and recushioning than the table as it is. And im getting the basic champions cloth and rubber. Im dedicated and in love with the game but I simply can't make dough magically appear. As time goes I'm going to learn how to do these repairs/upgrades and go all out Simonis, k66 etc. Thank you all again for your wisdom.

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Everybody seems to have missed you are already paying for new rubber...

The replacement rubber comes standard a few inches longer than the final
length as installed on the table.

SOOOOOOOOOO... all they need to do for the rubber is cut it roughly 1/8 inch
longer. That should not add to the price.

But - ideally the wood subrail should be extended the same amount. That will
take extra time and should cost a bit more.

Also Brunswick useed a different profile for its rubber - make sure the person
doing the job can handle all aspects of getting the right result.

Dale

realkingcobra said:

...including steel plate joining the slates together, installing the Diamond leveling system...

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What is your solution for when the plates are installed, and there is an unacceptable ridge on the slate top surface at the joint? On a new Diamond Professional, as far as I can tell, this happens when the slates are different thicknesses.

derangedhermit said:

What is your solution for when the plates are installed, and there is an unacceptable ridge on the slate top surface at the joint? On a new Diamond Professional, as far as I can tell, this happens when the slates are different thicknesses.

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I guess you missed the part where the slates are shimmer flat at the seam by shimming between the steel plates and the bottom side of the slate to compensate for the differences in thicknesses. I just put a GC4 together with mismatched slates, one end slate was 1/16" thicker than the rest of the slates. But once done, the surfaces of the slates were all flat at the seams, the leveling system took care of the bottom side to level the slates flat to the frame of the table, after it was recovered and put together first.

pdcue said:

Everybody seems to have missed you are already paying for new rubber...

The replacement rubber comes standard a few inches longer than the final
length as installed on the table.

SOOOOOOOOOO... all they need to do for the rubber is cut it roughly 1/8 inch
longer. That should not add to the price.

But - ideally the wood subrail should be extended the same amount. That will
take extra time and should cost a bit more.

Also Brunswick useed a different profile for its rubber - make sure the person
doing the job can handle all aspects of getting the right result.

Dale

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So what do you do to correct the pocket miter angles in your simple method of tightening the pockets, just copy the miter angles already made wrong?

realkingcobra said:

...installing the Diamond leveling system...

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I suppose you modify the Diamond system for use on a GC.

On a Diamond Professional, the joint leveling wedges for the center slate, the ones not along the slate edge but in the middle, are mounted on the half-sheets of 18mm plywood. When those wedges are adjusted, the plywood bends down and the slate stays where it is. It appears that 25mm slate is considerably stiffer than 18mm plywood. How do you deal with this when you need to use those levelers?

Since there are no corresponding levelers for the end slates along the joint, what do you do if an end slate is low in the middle along the joint?

realkingcobra said:

I guess you missed the part where the slates are shimmer flat at the seam by shimming between the steel plates and the bottom side of the slate to compensate for the differences in thicknesses. I just put a GC4 together with mismatched slates, one end slate was 1/16" thicker than the rest of the slates. But once done, the surfaces of the slates were all flat at the seams, the leveling system took care of the bottom side to level the slates flat to the frame of the table, after it was recovered and put together first.

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Yes, I missed any mention of shims. I will make some shims out of thin sheet metal and give that a try. Thank you.

realkingcobra said:

Diamond builds their sub-rails longer so that they only need a single facing to cap the end of the rails in the pockets. 3/16ths neoprene 60 durometer facings are used because they hold up much better, and protect the cloth from being cut through with continued ball pocketing.

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That was my point. If a "perfect" playing Diamond Table has 3/16" facings I don't see any reason a "loose" pocketed table couldn't be tightened up using up to 1/4" facings and still play decent. Will it be perfect? No. But if cost is an issue you can tighten up a 5" pocket by close to a 1/2" using the bigger facings. I guess it depends on what type of facings are on there to begin with.

5" pockets are made by turning out the miter angles room 143 degrees or
more, and just simply adding facing to extend the rails in order to tighten the pockets makes them play even worse without cutting back on the pocket miters to less of an angle, not to mention the stock pocket miter angles on a Brunswick for the most part AR not the same on both sides of the corner pockets, so stacking facings up just adds to the incorrectly built pocket angles, but people that think working on pool tables isn't rocket science, can do what ever they want, who cares if pool tables play right or not, afterall, their not looked at like pool cues, tips, chalk, cloth....where everything has improved in this industry, except the value of a good playing pool table, where cheap is always going to be the best value for the money!

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Players have played on less than perfect pool tables for generations. I think it's great that the industry is moving towards better playing tables. However, this doesn't mean that they have to play perfect to be enjoyable. This perfect playing table business is getting silly. Using thicker facings is a simple and cost effective method of tightening up a table and for most players a table setup this way will still be perfectly enjoyable.

And yes....I'm one of those people that think working on pool tables is not rocket science.

With all the money being spent on pool cues, tips, chalk, balls, and everything else in this industry, why does the public feel the need to spend the least amount possible on the most important part of this industry, the pool tables? When a room owner calls me to talk to me about fixing up their pool tables to play like Diamonds, but only have X amount of dollars they're willing to spend to do the job, I tell them good luck with their business, or to call me back when they can afford to pay me for the joint to be done right, because I'm not going to work forless than my skills are worth, period. So, they go hire someone that does a hack job on the pool tables, and next thing you know, someone else opens a better pool room, with better playing equipment, and the.pool room that hired the hack goes out of business because all the customers got tired of paying money to play on junk!

derangedhermit said:

I suppose you modify the Diamond system for use on a GC.

On a Diamond Professional, the joint leveling wedges for the center slate, the ones not along the slate edge but in the middle, are mounted on the half-sheets of 18mm plywood. When those wedges are adjusted, the plywood bends down and the slate stays where it is. It appears that 25mm slate is considerably stiffer than 18mm plywood. How do you deal with this when you need to use those levelers?

Since there are no corresponding levelers for the end slates along the joint, what do you do if an end slate is low in the middle along the joint?

Click to expand...

Diamond has already made changes to that leveling system your talking about based on my feedback.

I bought thicker facings for my gold crown I years ago and did all the work myself except leveling it. The facings are 5/16 and brought the corners to 4 5/8 inch which is perfect. Trust me 4.5" pockets play the same to me and anything over 4 3/4 feels like buckets.
Buy some facings for under 10 bucks and Simonis cloth. You can easily install the cloth yourself. I stripped and painted the wood on the table with a hard black enamel. Stained the wood corners of the pedestals to match the formica rails. Cleaned up the chrome corners and trim with metal polish. The table plays great and looks awesome. The whole project with table cost me 1250. I've made many times that is winnings and saved table time.
You don't have to break the bank to have a great table.

BasementDweller said:

That was my point. If a "perfect" playing Diamond Table has 3/16" facings I don't see any reason a "loose" pocketed table couldn't be tightened up using up to 1/4" facings and still play decent. Will it be perfect? No. But if cost is an issue you can tighten up a 5" pocket by close to a 1/2" using the bigger facings. I guess it depends on what type of facings are on there to begin with.



Players have played on less than perfect pool tables for generations. I think it's great that the industry is moving towards better playing tables. However, this doesn't mean that they have to play perfect to be enjoyable. This perfect playing table business is getting silly. Using thicker facings is a simple and cost effective method of tightening up a table and for most players a table setup this way will still be perfectly enjoyable.

And yes....I'm one of those people that think working on pool tables is not rocket science.

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Well then, here's some food for thought. When you close the pocket opening by a 1/2" you're also closing up the throat of the pocket by the same 1/2" so with out correcting the pocket miters to compensate for the throat being tighter by reducing the miter angles of the pocket opening....no one is gong to want to play on a table that rejects every ball pocketing attempt unless it's made right down the center of the pocket, because all the pocket facing are going to do with to wide of miter angles....is spit out every ball coming off the facings.

takeitdown said:

I bought thicker facings for my gold crown I years ago and did all the work myself except leveling it. The facings are 5/16 and brought the corners to 4 5/8 inch which is perfect. Trust me 4.5" pockets play the same to me and anything over 4 3/4 feels like buckets.
Buy some facings for under 10 bucks and Simonis cloth. You can easily install the cloth yourself. I stripped and painted the wood on the table with a hard black enamel. Stained the wood corners of the pedestals to match the formica rails. Cleaned up the chrome corners and trim with metal polish. The table plays great and looks awesome. The whole project with table cost me 1250. I've made many times that is winnings and saved table time.
You don't have to break the bank to have a great table.

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Post up some pictures of that work you did, let's take a look at them pockets today, I'd like to see for myself what kind of work you performed.

realkingcobra said:

Well then, here's some food for thought. When you close the pocket opening by a 1/2" you're also closing up the throat of the pocket by the same 1/2" so with out correcting the pocket miters to compensate for the throat being tighter by reducing the miter angles of the pocket opening....no one is gong to want to play on a table that rejects every ball pocketing attempt unless it's made right down the center of the pocket, because all the pocket facing are going to do with to wide of miter angles....is spit out every ball coming off the facings.

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You're exaggerating a bit here don't you think? This is where I think you go wrong. Many, many, people have played on tables like this and have enjoyed it. Like I said before, it doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable. Generations of pool players have come and gone -- long before subrail extensions were ever even talked about.

While you are trying to perfect the the pool table, I think you sometimes get lost in the forest.

BasementDweller said:

You're exaggerating a bit here don't you think? This is where I think you go wrong. Many, many, people have played on tables like this and have enjoyed it. Like I said before, it doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable. Generations of pool players have come and gone -- long before subrail extensions were ever even talked about.

While you are trying to perfect the the pool table, I think you sometimes get lost in the forest.

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With over 30 years experience working on pool tables, and being a player for almost 50 years, you think what I know to be a fact to be exaggerating the truth?....LOL...really

BasementDweller said:

You're exaggerating a bit here don't you think? This is where I think you go wrong. Many, many, people have played on tables like this and have enjoyed it. Like I said before, it doesn't have to be perfect to be enjoyable. Generations of pool players have come and gone -- long before subrail extensions were ever even talked about.

While you are trying to perfect the the pool table, I think you sometimes get lost in the forest.

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When watching Shane make an amazing shot by spiking the ball down the rail and punching the cue ball out just enough to get position, I realized it couldn't be done on my old gold crown 2 with mismatched rails, ancient rubber, and shimmed pockets. The object ball gets rejected every time.

It depends on what your long-term goals are. If you want to pull off those types of shots, you need perfect equipment. If you are just kicking around having fun, then by all means play on.

And he has a point in asking how does it play after cloth is broke in and settled on facings. Freshly clothed rails will be deceiving, he isn't exaggerating there.

realkingcobra said:

With over 30 years experience working on pool tables, and being a player for almost 50 years, you think what I know to be a fact to be exaggerating the truth?....LOL...really

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Yeah I think you are exaggerating when you say "no one is gong to want to play on a table that rejects every ball pocketing attempt unless it's made right down the center of the pocket, because all the pocket facing are going to do with to wide of miter angles....is spit out every ball coming off the facings."

Plenty of people will want to play on less than perfect tables AND every single ball will not be rejected. Those are clear exaggerations.

realkingcobra said:

Diamond has already made changes to that leveling system your talking about based on my feedback.

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Hmmm...they built mine in June 2014, 4 months ago.