My view of the financial viability of pool halls, and what has to change.

Texdance

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My friend built a new construction two story building, shop below and quarters above, about two thousand square feet each floor. She got bank financing by presenting a good business plan. She lives above the shop and has a one or two employees working the flower/gift/card shop downstairs. Hours are reasonable, 9-6 or 10-7 or thereabouts.

The old model of the owner and family living above or below the family business location would still work for some, especially for people who want to be close to their business all the time, or for people who are downsizing at retirement, or for any number of similar situations where are O.K. with living above or below their shop, and living in a space smaller than a McMansion. If I were single and had not so many outdoor pets this would be one scenario I would look into for my own pool hall investment. I would not worry so much about profit if I knew the pool room paid for my living quarters and basic expenses off the top.

Public transportation - that is what supported big city pool halls forever. When the one person-one car lifestyle began, big parking lots were needed, and this shut out many inner city older rooms. To have big parking, you have be next door to a big lighted parking lot, probably owned by someone else. You would need permission to park there, and security for those having to walk any distance to their car. Without adequate parking no business which needs to fill to the walls every evening for a few hours will thrive. We had a small pool hall open up in a location that should have drawn scores of junior college students - but it only had four parking spaces, maybe six in a pinch, ,and the nearest other parking was across the five lane street a hundred yards down the road. So it lasted two months or less, doomed to failure from the start by a bad business plan.

I will continue to read this forum, at some point I hope to see a room owner or former owner list the expenses and income stream and what worked or did not work for them.

I know that in-house gambling games kept some rooms open for a long time, but the various states have taken over the numbers games, and those one armed poker bandits are long gone now.
 

derangedhermit

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Your diagrams won't work. The middle tables do not provide a comfortable area for customers and they will not go to them. Where would they sit? Where would the women put their pocket books or the men their cue cases or beer? Try again. This one won't work.

Bob

Your layouts allow five feet to the walls and no space for seating around the perimeter. Most also have a center island for access to tables.

My first layouts had at least 7' of seating for every table. I had seating islands where needed beside each table or row of tables. I had a center service island on a couple also, because I liked that idea too. But I couldn't create one where the counter person could see the entire room and it still displayed the drinks / goodies to the customers, and it increases counter space and you need more room around it and the tables - not just the meager 5 feet I have shown.

I actually thought about it a lot, before eliminating permanent space for seating. I checked into stadium seating for putting on the walls, the kind of seat that pops up when you aren't sitting in it, so it would be out of the way.

I don't think you can get 10 tables, even 7' tables, in 2000 sqft with ample seating and a center service island. To pay just the landlord I'd have to rob the Subway next door once a month, or sell drugs out the back door.
 

derangedhermit

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Public transportation - that is what supported big city pool halls forever. When the one person-one car lifestyle began, big parking lots were needed, and this shut out many inner city older rooms. To have big parking, you have be next door to a big lighted parking lot, probably owned by someone else. You would need permission to park there, and security for those having to walk any distance to their car. Without adequate parking no business which needs to fill to the walls every evening for a few hours will thrive. We had a small pool hall open up in a location that should have drawn scores of junior college students - but it only had four parking spaces, maybe six in a pinch, ,and the nearest other parking was across the five lane street a hundred yards down the road. So it lasted two months or less, doomed to failure from the start by a bad business plan.

I know that in-house gambling games kept some rooms open for a long time, but the various states have taken over the numbers games, and those one armed poker bandits are long gone now.

Thanks for providing some insight into the transportation and parking issue. I asked a few posts back, and am glad to see stated what I suspected: you need a parking space for every player at any given time, and that's much more demand than most businesses of similar (small) size have, or landlords build for. I think parking availability alone will limit the choices of potentially successful locations.

Gambling or video games or booze may help the business. A bar, or "sports bar", with a few tables can be profitable more easily, but I imagine they would often do just as well without the pool. Pro sports are on TV every night of the week now. Unlike a pool table, a flat screen on the wall takes zero space away from more eating and drinking customers. You could even add streaming of pool events. To me it looks more and more like simply providing today's tables and equipment to play pool in a safe and friendly environment is rarely a viable business.
 

Texdance

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The best indicator of pool room viability may be the thread here:

"Established Pool Business for sale! - 11-20-2013, 01:29 PM
Corner Pocket Billiards N café in Wheeling WV is for sale- $175,000 takes the business and all inventory items."

http://forums.azbilliards.com//showthread.php?t=341496

Despite the many many good features of this small room, the owner has to keep lowering the price and ten months later he is down to $100k and partial owner financing with $50k down and payments of $1k per month.

His room only has eight tables: six 7-footers and two 9-footers, but he claims to have turned around a dormant pool room and now be doing land office business with dart leagues, pool leagues - 600+ league customers, food & drink, game room, WV lottery machines(?),etc.

That should either be a model business, or maybe one to buy outright

I wonder what the take is from the WV lottery machines, is it enough to pay utilities? Rent? Both? Does the owner draw a decent salary, or any salary? Employee wage scale? I am curious but won't ask in that thread because he seems to have some serious offers or buyers and he does not need me clogging up his posts.
 

Baby Huey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I own Stiix Billiards in Ventura Ca. About 15 years ago I bought the building. That proved to be critical in my ability to continue to be in business. I don't make a lot of money but because I own the building, I can stay in business. So the following is what I think a successful room needs to have in place. By the way I don't have all these things in place:
- overhead must be kept to a minimum
- must have leagues
- must have some food and draft beer
- must have multiple TVs and some sports packages
- MUST HAVE A MONTHLY PRACTICE RATE that will keep your regulars coming in
- must be clean all the time
- get rid of the lowlifes
- must be able to allow all ages. sacrifice hard alcohol to have under 21 yrs of age allowed inside
- staff must be understand your program and promote it
 

Crash

Pool Hall Owner
Silver Member
I own Stiix Billiards in Ventura Ca. About 15 years ago I bought the building. That proved to be critical in my ability to continue to be in business. I don't make a lot of money but because I own the building, I can stay in business. So the following is what I think a successful room needs to have in place. By the way I don't have all these things in place:
- overhead must be kept to a minimum
- must have leagues
- must have some food and draft beer
- must have multiple TVs and some sports packages
- MUST HAVE A MONTHLY PRACTICE RATE that will keep your regulars coming in
- must be clean all the time
- get rid of the lowlifes
- must be able to allow all ages. sacrifice hard alcohol to have under 21 yrs of age allowed inside
- staff must be understand your program and promote it

Steve's has most of what you describe but I've learned the hard way (new to the business world) that owning the building is the way to go. I pay enough rent to make a payment on a building. The landlord gets more money out of my business than I do. 2 1/2 years left on the lease then I start looking.
 

derangedhermit

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I own Stiix Billiards in Ventura Ca. About 15 years ago I bought the building. That proved to be critical in my ability to continue to be in business. I don't make a lot of money but because I own the building, I can stay in business. So the following is what I think a successful room needs to have in place. By the way I don't have all these things in place:
- overhead must be kept to a minimum
- must have leagues
- must have some food and draft beer
- must have multiple TVs and some sports packages
- MUST HAVE A MONTHLY PRACTICE RATE that will keep your regulars coming in
- must be clean all the time
- get rid of the lowlifes
- must be able to allow all ages. sacrifice hard alcohol to have under 21 yrs of age allowed inside
- staff must be understand your program and promote it

Steve's has most of what you describe but I've learned the hard way (new to the business world) that owning the building is the way to go.

It's great to get responses from two more people who own rooms.

Baby Huey, I'm on board with your entire list. That's the direction I'd like to go (and/or see here in more local rooms).

The "must own the building" thing is going to rule out a lot of potential room owners - certainly me. Since many small retail businesses (or types of businesses) do not have to make that commitment to be profitable, I interpret this to mean that pool rooms are, in general, less profitable than many other similar small businesses.

I think this would be a good topic for a new thread in this forum: "How many room owners here on AZB own the building, and how important is owning the building to the business?"
 

Ralph Kramden

BOOM!.. ZOOM!.. MOON!
Silver Member
I own Stiix Billiards in Ventura Ca. About 15 years ago I bought the building. That proved to be critical in my ability to continue to be in business. I don't make a lot of money but because I own the building, I can stay in business. So the following is what I think a successful room needs to have in place. By the way I don't have all these things in place:
- overhead must be kept to a minimum
- must have leagues
- must have some food and draft beer
- must have multiple TVs and some sports packages
- MUST HAVE A MONTHLY PRACTICE RATE that will keep your regulars coming in
- must be clean all the time
- get rid of the lowlifes
- must be able to allow all ages. sacrifice hard alcohol to have under 21 yrs of age allowed inside
- staff must be understand your program and promote it

Bring back the game of Pea (Kelly) pool. Our local room used to have tables with 4 or more players that would play for hours.
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BBL

Registered
Yes there needs to be a change

Yes I agree with there needs to be a change in pool.

Although I would not say it is going to smaller tables, but yes you are right about footage I agree on that, but do not mess with dimensions of a game that is over 100 years old. The integrity of the game has to stay intact.

I would say however maybe sliding tables that would become space savers, but that would lead to what would replace slate on a pool table.

Next is i had a room and customers came to play because they wanted to play on bigger tables, you can go almost anywhere and play on a smaller table.

The other thing going from 9 ball to 10 ball is more difficult, and actually is worse on a smaller table because of conjustion due to a small table. The only thing easy about a small table is they have bowling balls for pockets.

Baby Huey is right with his list and actually that was the same list I have, the main one you can not survive without the date night crowd.

As for tournaments omg where can I begin with this one. Tournaments are good and bad. First how much out of the entry fee are you paying out.

What race chips or what kind of tournament. Everyone wants to give tournament players pool time because they paid there entry fee. I say go the other way shorten it and just maybe if they get knocked out they might match up. Look at it from the perspective of a player you a 45 min ride to play in a tournament and get knocked out early, this person is probably going to hang for a while. Remember tournament players you only receive a small percentage from their entry fee, don't tie up your room to make $ 50 lol.

In order to survive and I am shocked no one asked this, is how much is the rent. If your rent is $5000 and you charge $8 a hour and only have 10 tables and pool is your only source of income good luck, but if your rent is $2000 you might be able to work with it.

Gambling machines if you can get them do it omg they can be a life saver.

Sorry but I am going to jump back to tournaments for a minute just ember you need to a field where the championship will end with 2 and you don't want someone getting a bye late into a money round. Next you can do any field you want depending on how many games let's say it's a race to 2 well a field of 64 would be over in 2-3 hours max and tables.

64-32-16-8-4-2 6 rounds

Last thing be prepared to work, don't put joe smo in to relieve you during prime time. Also don't try to employee people with pool time, honestly you could get robbed. Next be fair with you worker at least pay him minimum wage don't under pay him it is a cash business you don't need to worry $100 is missing.

Last but not least and know everyone will argue on this clean your tables aside from regular duties you will be surprised if someone comes in and they are playing and see dust on lamps from not being cleaned in 3 months.

Also here is a secret no one knows if your tables look dirty and is getting close to being recovered try this. Soak the table with dye use a sponge to soak it up some. In 24-32 hours it will look 10xs better.
 

derangedhermit

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I own Stiix Billiards in Ventura Ca. About 15 years ago I bought the building. That proved to be critical in my ability to continue to be in business. I don't make a lot of money but because I own the building, I can stay in business.
If, instead of running Stiix Billiards, you rented out your building for some other business(es), would you start making more or less money each month? (Please subtract from current income a salary for yourself for the hours you put in.)
 
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