Rules Question / Also A WWYD?

S

Speedie

Registered
I was playing in a fairly low-key tournament last night, nothing major, $3 buy-in and the first prize was $85. My opponent was a guy who I have a healthy and friendly rivalry with, plenty of needling each other before and after (but not during) games and so on. The tournament is single rack 8 ball, double elimination, and we were both playing in the winners' bracket.

I was playing the high numbers and had 2 balls remaining having run 5 off the break, he had yet to sink a ball. After his shot I was left with the cue ball frozen to his 1 ball, close to the head rail, and they were frozen side-to-side.

I had a natural combination on my 2 remaining balls, and it involved playing away from the ball that I was frozen to. Everyone was watching. I played the shot, made the combination, both balls went in and I was in prime position on the 8 ball.

However...as I played the shot, even though I was 100% sure that I was playing away from his 1 ball, I saw his ball move ever so slightly. I mean 1 less coat of paint on either ball and it would have been a non-event. More of a wobble than anything.

Nobody else saw it and they were waiting for me to sink the 8 ball. However I picked up the cue ball and gave him ball in hand. Given our disposition towards each other he thought I was playing with him, but trust me, if I could run this guy out after he had 1 visit to the table I would :smile:

I went on to win the rack anyway (and the tournament as it happens) but I'm curious about the rules for that specific situation. I should add here that I grew up in the UK playing snooker, and I've only been taking pool seriously for a couple of months so I'm still getting up to speed on some of the more esoteric rules.

Part of me thinks that on a bar box table in less than prime condition, the 1 ball could have been on a slight divot in the cloth and simple wobbled into it once the cue ball was played. Unavoidable in other words. The physics of the situation dictate that I couldn't possibly have actually hit his ball with the cue ball - I'd estimate that I was playing away by at least 30 degrees.

Nonetheless his ball did move as part of the shot and I felt honor bound to call the foul. I don't ever want to win the wrong way.

So...WWYD? And is there a rule, unwritten or not, covering that specific situation?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
 
G

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Speedie said:
I was playing in a fairly low-key tournament last night, nothing major, $3 buy-in and the first prize was $85. My opponent was a guy who I have a healthy and friendly rivalry with, plenty of needling each other before and after (but not during) games and so on. The tournament is single rack 8 ball, double elimination, and we were both playing in the winners' bracket.

I was playing the high numbers and had 2 balls remaining having run 5 off the break, he had yet to sink a ball. After his shot I was left with the cue ball frozen to his 1 ball, close to the head rail, and they were frozen side-to-side.

I had a natural combination on my 2 remaining balls, and it involved playing away from the ball that I was frozen to. Everyone was watching. I played the shot, made the combination, both balls went in and I was in prime position on the 8 ball.

However...as I played the shot, even though I was 100% sure that I was playing away from his 1 ball, I saw his ball move ever so slightly. I mean 1 less coat of paint on either ball and it would have been a non-event. More of a wobble than anything.

Nobody else saw it and they were waiting for me to sink the 8 ball. However I picked up the cue ball and gave him ball in hand. Given our disposition towards each other he thought I was playing with him, but trust me, if I could run this guy out after he had 1 visit to the table I would :smile:

I went on to win the rack anyway (and the tournament as it happens) but I'm curious about the rules for that specific situation. I should add here that I grew up in the UK playing snooker, and I've only been taking pool seriously for a couple of months so I'm still getting up to speed on some of the more esoteric rules.

Part of me thinks that on a bar box table in less than prime condition, the 1 ball could have been on a slight divot in the cloth and simple wobbled into it once the cue ball was played. Unavoidable in other words. The physics of the situation dictate that I couldn't possibly have actually hit his ball with the cue ball - I'd estimate that I was playing away by at least 30 degrees.

Nonetheless his ball did move as part of the shot and I felt honor bound to call the foul. I don't ever want to win the wrong way.

So...WWYD? And is there a rule, unwritten or not, covering that specific situation?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
Click to expand...
All i can say is i like your style sir. Well played.
 
ChopStick

ChopStick

Unsane Poster
Silver Member
It used to be in the rules that your opponent has to call a foul or it is not a foul. I use the golf definition of a ball moving. If a ball is at rest in place and after the shot the ball is resting in a different place then it has moved. If it is still in the original place it did not move. "Wobbling" does not count. Plus it could be an optical illusion on anyones part.

I was once in a match where I left a guy frozen to his own ball under the pack at the foot end. He pushed the cueball away from the ball to the foot rail and claimed "it rocked". Bullshit. The ball did not move. I called foul and an argument ensued.
 
Bob Jewett

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Speedie said:
... However...as I played the shot, even though I was 100% sure that I was playing away from his 1 ball, I saw his ball move ever so slightly. I mean 1 less coat of paint on either ball and it would have been a non-event. More of a wobble than anything....

So...WWYD? And is there a rule, unwritten or not, covering that specific situation?

...
Click to expand...
Here is the rule from snooker:

(f) If the referee is satisfied that any movement of a touching ball at the
moment of striking was not caused by the striker, he will not call a foul.
​

The frozen ball may well be leaning against the cue ball especially on old, lumpy cloth. In fact, if they are touching, it is likely that some unevenness in the cloth is keeping them together. In such a situation, the player should not be penalized if the leaning ball moves when its support is removed.

At some point I think a pool rules set had a similar rule but I can't find it now. The closest I could find was "the player is not penalized for a settling ball" but it was not in the specific context of a frozen ball.
 
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S

Speedie

Registered
Bob Jewett said:
Here is the rule from snooker:

(f) If the referee is satisfied that any movement of a touching ball at the
moment of striking was not caused by the striker, he will not call a foul.
​

The frozen ball may well be leaning against the cue ball especially on old, lumpy cloth. In fact, if they are touching, it is likely that some unevenness in the cloth is keeping them together. In such a situation, the player should not be penalized is the leaning ball moves when its support is removed.

At some point I think a pool rules set had a similar rule but I can't find it now. The closest I could find was "the player is not penalized for a settling ball" but it was not it the specific context of a frozen ball.
Click to expand...

Very helpful, thank-you!

If a similar situation should arise in future, I guess the best option would be to have a third party watch the shot from close-up and confirm that the direction of the shot is absolutely, without a doubt, away from the ball that the cue ball is frozen to. That way if any settling / movement does occur then it can't be claimed that it was because the cue ball made contact.
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Here is the rule from snooker:

(f) If the referee is satisfied that any movement of a touching ball at the
moment of striking was not caused by the striker, he will not call a foul.
​

The frozen ball may well be leaning against the cue ball especially on old, lumpy cloth. In fact, if they are touching, it is likely that some unevenness in the cloth is keeping them together. In such a situation, the player should not be penalized is the leaning ball moves when its support is removed.

At some point I think a pool rules set had a similar rule but I can't find it now. The closest I could find was "the player is not penalized for a settling ball" but it was not it the specific context of a frozen ball.
Click to expand...

Speedie said:
Very helpful, thank-you!

If a similar situation should arise in future, I guess the best option would be to have a third party watch the shot from close-up and confirm that the direction of the shot is absolutely, without a doubt, away from the ball that the cue ball is frozen to. That way if any settling / movement does occur then it can't be claimed that it was because the cue ball made contact.
Click to expand...

In snooker I’ve heard it called ‘displacement’....you need an outside call on that shot.
...on a snooker table, it happens more often because of where the colors spot get worn.
 
S

Speedie

Registered
ChopStick said:
I was once in a match where I left a guy frozen to his own ball under the pack at the foot end. He pushed the cueball away from the ball to the foot rail and claimed "it rocked". Bullshit. The ball did not move. I called foul and an argument ensued.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that kind of thing drives me nuts. I was in a much bigger, handicapped tournament last week and I beat my first round opponent 2-1 in a 2-3 race. Next thing I knew, the guy running the tournament was telling me who I had in the losers' bracket. Huh? Turns out my opponent had reported that he won the match 3-1 :angry: Luckily there were witnesses.
 
tatcat2000

tatcat2000

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The applicable CSI rule is 1-49-2:

If a ball that is frozen to the cue ball moves as the cue ball leaves its original position on a shot, whether or not it was moved by the cue ball or settled on its own is determined solely by the referee's judgment.

While WSR 1.7 addresses balls settling it makes no effort to address the OP situation. However, it also gives no basis for calling a foul for the OP situation.

When training referees I always instructed them to pay attention to the direction of motion of the frozen ball. Simply shooting "away" is not necessarily a guarantee of success. If you were shooting at an angle that was substantially across the line of centers of the frozen balls AND using enough side spin that you are setting up well off of vertical center on the side opposite of the frozen ball, the squirt could easily push the frozen ball away ftom the CB thus causing a foul.

Buddy
 
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Buckzapper

Buckzapper

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's called "settling." The ball settles after the cue ball has left, perhaps because of cloth, a divot in the slate or just plain gravity.
You did not foul.
 
dabarbr

dabarbr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You're a good man for calling a foul on yourself even though you knew that you shot away from that object ball. I'm surprised that your friend accepted the foul.
I remember a match I was in and I called the ref to oversee a shot that had similar results. The ref called foul. I waited until the ref left, as to not to embarrass him, and told my opponent that I would not take the ball in hand. I knew the ball rocked on it own.
 
S

Speedie

Registered
dabarbr said:
You're a good man for calling a foul on yourself even though you knew that you shot away from that object ball. I'm surprised that your friend accepted the foul.
I remember a match I was in and I called the ref to oversee a shot that had similar results. The ref called foul. I waited until the ref left, as to not to embarrass him, and told my opponent that I would not take the ball in hand. I knew the ball rocked on it own.
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We actually debated it for a good 2 or 3 minutes before he accepted it. He's a good guy even if we do like to screw with each other off the table, it's always good natured. Fun to play against people like that :)
 
S

Speedie

Registered
tatcat2000 said:
The applicable CSI rule is 1-49-2:

If a ball that is frozen to the cue ball moves as the cue ball leaves its original position on a shot, whether or not it was moved by the cue ball or settled on its own is determined solely by the referee's judgment.

While WSR 1.7 addresses balls settling it makes no effort to address the OP situation. However, it also gives no basis for calling a foul for the OP situation.

When training referees I always instructed them to pay attention to the direction of motion of the frozen ball. Simply shooting "away" is not necessarily a guarantee of success. If you were shooting at an angle that was substantially across the line of centers of the frozen balls AND using enough side spin that you are setting up well off of vertical center on the side opposite of the frozen ball, the squirt could easily push the frozen ball away ftom the CB thus causing a foul.

Buddy
Click to expand...

Thank-you for this, that's really helpful information to have. A little more detail: the cue ball was to the left, and slightly forward of, his 1 ball and they were relatively close to the center line (lengthwise) of the table, behind the head string. I was shooting a combination that was close to the left rail, maybe 1 diamond after the side pocket.

I wasn't deliberately using English but at my skill level it's entirely possible that I wasn't hitting exactly center ball LOL. I hadn't considered that possibility, and it makes me feel that calling the foul was for sure the right decision. If this situation comes up again then I'll definitely have a 3rd party act as referee.
 
erhino41

erhino41

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
Here is the rule from snooker:

(f) If the referee is satisfied that any movement of a touching ball at the
moment of striking was not caused by the striker, he will not call a foul.
​

The frozen ball may well be leaning against the cue ball especially on old, lumpy cloth. In fact, if they are touching, it is likely that some unevenness in the cloth is keeping them together. In such a situation, the player should not be penalized if the leaning ball moves when its support is removed.

At some point I think a pool rules set had a similar rule but I can't find it now. The closest I could find was "the player is not penalized for a settling ball" but it was not in the specific context of a frozen ball.
Click to expand...
This was my thought exactly. If you are truly shooting away from a ball it is physically impossible to hit that ball first. Now I didn't see the exact shot, but even 1 degree towards the cue ball side can't be a foul.

Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
 
Fatboy

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At the risk of going OT, I can’t help myself from noting one thing. I read the first paragraph only.

$3 entry and $85 first place.

That’s less $ than in the 80’s for a tourney. I get it’s not always about $ and having fun with friends is cool and what not. But the $ makes it more exciting and rewarding. Gives people pause and to try harder for a reward at the end of the night. At least that’s what I thought.

The world is changing, I’m not. If it’s worth doing it’s worth doing for money. To me that’s pool.

I hope the rule thing was worked out honorably. There was a recent dispute at Turning Stone on calling a foul. When no witnesses were there. It didn’t end nicely.

Best

Fatboy
 
S

Speedie

Registered
Fatboy said:
At the risk of going OT, I can’t help myself from noting one thing. I read the first paragraph only.

$3 entry and $85 first place.

That’s less $ than in the 80’s for a tourney. I get it’s not always about $ and having fun with friends is cool and what not. But the $ makes it more exciting and rewarding. Gives people pause and to try harder for a reward at the end of the night. At least that’s what I thought.

The world is changing, I’m not. If it’s worth doing it’s worth doing for money. To me that’s pool.

I hope the rule thing was worked out honorably. There was a recent dispute at Turning Stone on calling a foul. When no witnesses were there. It didn’t end nicely.

Best

Fatboy
Click to expand...

No complaints from me about going OT, that's how conversations work :thumbup2:

Most of the players are APA 4 or 5 with the occasional 6. For the lower ranks and newer players (like me) it's a good way to get my feet wet playing in front of people rather than solo on my home table, meet new folks, and have a little bit of exposure to tournament pressure. For the bar owner, he chips in a few bucks towards the first and second place prizes, but he gets traffic in the bar on a notoriously slow night. Win-win.

If I'd jumped straight into a bigger tournament with bigger prizes and therefore much better players than me on average, I'd have most likely had my ass kicked and been done after the first round. Would it have motivated me to get better? Sure, but I don't need any help with motivation. I want to be the best player that I can be. Getting tournament experience against players at and around my current level helps me to develop the mental aspect of the game. Trust me, I felt plenty of pressure lining up the winning shot on the 8 ball even if it was only $85 on the line!

Final thought since I tend to go on a bit: when I first entered this tournament a month ago, I was knocked out of both brackets by APA 3s. The second week I got through the first two rounds and then got knocked out by a 4 after having multiple chances to win. I'll admit it, I choked. Hard. Last week I finished runner up to a consistently better player (APA 6, FargoRate 541). This week I won both the 9 ball, which I'd never entered before, and 8 ball tournaments on back-to-back nights. In doing so I knocked off a couple of 6s and a 7 who had put in a guest appearance. My game has certainly improved in that time after a LOT of practice at home, but now I'm not at all fazed by playing in front of people with loud music blaring. I'm probably ready to step up to bigger tournaments now without being intimidated off the table :smile:
 
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