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02-25-2019, 03:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
Sounds like you're confusing eye dominance with the term vision centre. Vision centre to me is how you sight something to allow for the intended cue and body alignment as well as being able to tell where centre cue ball is whilst down. I am extremely left eye dominant, but I sight a shot and have my cue pretty central between my eyes and on my chin.
I haven't had time to respond to PJ or you, but let's start with a definition of what the vision center is before I discuss why I think it is possibly an incomplete or even misleading bit of terminology. You said "to me." What is the actual definition? Is Dr. Dave's description of vision center acceptable to everyone?

Also, why do you have your chin over the cue? Did you just naturally line up that way or was it a conscious decision to put your chin there?
  
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02-25-2019, 04:03 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I haven't had time to respond to PJ or you, but let's start with a definition of what the vision center is before I discuss why I think it is possibly an incomplete or even misleading bit of terminology. You said "to me." What is the actual definition? Is Dr. Dave's description of vision center acceptable to everyone?

Also, why do you have your chin over the cue? Did you just naturally line up that way or was it a conscious decision to put your chin there?
I don't know how Dr Dave is describing it. I've been out of the pool game for years now. I've described my definition. I'm not talking about anyone else's definition here.

I have my chin over the cue because that allows me to sight centre cue ball accurately and it makes potting angles look correct when I'm aligned properly and wrong when I'm not.

This was a conscious decision I made years ago. Once I discovered a way of testing my sighting abilities I put it into practice and started playing better. Much better. At this time when I discovered it I went from being around an 80 break snooker player to a consistent century break snooker player in around 3 months.

Learning a chin position and sticking with it is awful advice. Having your head over the shot a certain way can cause poor alignment. That poor alignment will create really poor mechanics in order for you to pot a ball.
  
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02-25-2019, 04:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
I don't know how Dr Dave is describing it. I've been out of the pool game for years now. I've described my definition. I'm not talking about anyone else's definition here.

I have my chin over the cue because that allows me to sight centre cue ball accurately and it makes potting angles look correct when I'm aligned properly and wrong when I'm not.

This was a conscious decision I made years ago. Once I discovered a way of testing my sighting abilities I put it into practice and started playing better. Much better. At this time when I discovered it I went from being around an 80 break snooker player to a consistent century break snooker player in around 3 months.

Learning a chin position and sticking with it is awful advice. Having your head over the shot a certain way can cause poor alignment. That poor alignment will create really poor mechanics in order for you to pot a ball.
I'm a little confused. You said it was a conscious decision to put your chin over the cue. You then said you found a way of testing your sighting abilities and started playing better. Does that mean you no longer put your chin over the cue?

I had a feeling you had your own definition of "vision center." I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that it is difficult to discuss a point when everybody has their own definition. I think people throw that term around without really knowing what it is or whether it is even useful.
  
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02-25-2019, 05:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I haven't had time to respond to PJ or you, but let's start with a definition of what the vision center is before I discuss why I think it is possibly an incomplete or even misleading bit of terminology. You said "to me." What is the actual definition? Is Dr. Dave's description of vision center acceptable to everyone?
Here's Dave's definition:

Quote:
https://billiards.colostate.edu/FAQ/eyes/vision-center/

"Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB."
In other words, wherever you correctly see shot alignments.

What's not to like?

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02-26-2019, 01:18 AM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
I'm a little confused. You said it was a conscious decision to put your chin over the cue. You then said you found a way of testing your sighting abilities and started playing better. Does that mean you no longer put your chin over the cue?

I had a feeling you had your own definition of "vision center." I'm not trying to be difficult, it's just that it is difficult to discuss a point when everybody has their own definition. I think people throw that term around without really knowing what it is or whether it is even useful.
The testing showed me that having my chin over the cue was correct for me, so I made the conscious decision to do it like that. I've played that way ever since.
  
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02-26-2019, 07:12 AM

1) Align a perfectly straight, long shot, with some distance between cue ball and object ball

2) Get down on the shot in your usual stance

3) Does the shot appear perfectly straight to you? Acknowledge that fact, now move your head laterally to the right or left and inch or two (move your head sideways with your neck and torso rather than swivel your head). Note that the straight shot appears to now be an angled cut shot, causing you to add human error to the shot from here.

The "vision center" or "alignment spot" is where the shot looks precisely as it appears in reality. A consistent head-eye position, particularly the position where the straight shot looks straight, is needed for each and every shot, cut or straight.

For the OP, my original questions remain. I can help them get down on the shot without undercutting to begin, but I cannot fix a stance (safely) without more information.


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02-26-2019, 03:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Here's Dave's definition:


In other words, wherever you correctly see shot alignments.

What's not to like?

pj
chgo
"Correctly see"? Let me answer your question with a question. What makes you think that just because everything looks like it is lined up straight while in shooting position that it actually is?
  
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02-26-2019, 03:41 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
What makes you think that just because everything looks like it is lined up straight while in shooting position that it actually is?
I don't think that. That's the point of finding your "vision center" (and the definition of it) - it's the position where "what you see is what you get". If there's no such position possible for you, then I guess "vision center" isn't a solution for you.

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02-26-2019, 05:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I don't think that. That's the point of finding your "vision center" (and the definition of it) - it's the position where "what you see is what you get". If there's no such position possible for you, then I guess "vision center" isn't a solution for you.

pj
chgo
Not to be argumentative, but I do think you think that. You said Dave's vision center allows you to "correctly" see shot alignments. You are making the leap that just because it looks straight that it actually is. Here...

For reference: Dr. Dave -- "Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB."

I think you and Dr. Dave are glossing over something important. His definition merely says that a straight in shot (that obviously is straight) LOOKS straight when the shooter is on his vision center (note Dave's definition says nothing about the shaft alignment relative to the two balls but I assume that is supposed to be part of the definition). He says "allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight..." Think about the bold part. Just because you SEE the shot as straight, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that you actually have the cue lined up correctly on that line even if the tip is at center ball. So if the vision center puts you in the position where everything LOOKS lined up straight but really isn't (ie, the cue itself is off line) then what good is the concept?

If we take it to the next step and put a camera on the player, or have someone with sharp eyes look straight at the shooter and tell him when everything is truly lined up straight, then he will learn what it feels like to hold the cue on the true shot line. He may find that it looks and feels completely wrong and will need to start his body and head position over from scratch. I would argue that this new position could be called a "vision center" but it certainly will not feel like the correct position initially. Only over time will it sink in and start to feel natural and correct. Also, "vision center" would be wholly inadequate to characterize the new body and visual alignment required to finally have a correct alignment.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
  
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02-27-2019, 01:15 AM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Not to be argumentative, but I do think you think that. You said Dave's vision center allows you to "correctly" see shot alignments. You are making the leap that just because it looks straight that it actually is. Here...

For reference: Dr. Dave -- "Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB."

I think you and Dr. Dave are glossing over something important. His definition merely says that a straight in shot (that obviously is straight) LOOKS straight when the shooter is on his vision center (note Dave's definition says nothing about the shaft alignment relative to the two balls but I assume that is supposed to be part of the definition). He says "allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight..." Think about the bold part. Just because you SEE the shot as straight, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that you actually have the cue lined up correctly on that line even if the tip is at center ball. So if the vision center puts you in the position where everything LOOKS lined up straight but really isn't (ie, the cue itself is off line) then what good is the concept?

If we take it to the next step and put a camera on the player, or have someone with sharp eyes look straight at the shooter and tell him when everything is truly lined up straight, then he will learn what it feels like to hold the cue on the true shot line. He may find that it looks and feels completely wrong and will need to start his body and head position over from scratch. I would argue that this new position could be called a "vision center" but it certainly will not feel like the correct position initially. Only over time will it sink in and start to feel natural and correct. Also, "vision center" would be wholly inadequate to characterize the new body and visual alignment required to finally have a correct alignment.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKoMZrg1MAg
  
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02-27-2019, 04:22 AM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
Not to be argumentative, but I do think you think that. You said Dave's vision center allows you to "correctly" see shot alignments. You are making the leap that just because it looks straight that it actually is. Here...

For reference: Dr. Dave -- "Your vision center is the head and eye alignment, relative to the cue, that allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight, with the tip appearing to be at the center of the CB."

I think you and Dr. Dave are glossing over something important. His definition merely says that a straight in shot (that obviously is straight) LOOKS straight when the shooter is on his vision center (note Dave's definition says nothing about the shaft alignment relative to the two balls but I assume that is supposed to be part of the definition). He says "allows you to see a center-ball, straight-in shot as straight..." Think about the bold part. Just because you SEE the shot as straight, it DOES NOT FOLLOW that you actually have the cue lined up correctly on that line even if the tip is at center ball. So if the vision center puts you in the position where everything LOOKS lined up straight but really isn't (ie, the cue itself is off line) then what good is the concept?

If we take it to the next step and put a camera on the player, or have someone with sharp eyes look straight at the shooter and tell him when everything is truly lined up straight, then he will learn what it feels like to hold the cue on the true shot line. He may find that it looks and feels completely wrong and will need to start his body and head position over from scratch. I would argue that this new position could be called a "vision center" but it certainly will not feel like the correct position initially. Only over time will it sink in and start to feel natural and correct. Also, "vision center" would be wholly inadequate to characterize the new body and visual alignment required to finally have a correct alignment.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
Dave’s definition of “vision center” is the one that looks right when it is right. If a head position doesn’t look right OR isn’t right, then it isn’t your “vision center”.

By definition there’s no “wrong vision center”.

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02-27-2019, 05:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Dave’s definition of “vision center” is the one that looks right when it is right. If a head position doesn’t look right OR isn’t right, then it isn’t your “vision center”.

By definition there’s no “wrong vision center”.

pj
chgo
We're not communicating very well, possibly my bad. The point I'm trying to make is that there may very well not be a position that "looks right when it is right." Now, if you can stand behind the cue lined straight up with the balls then surely everybody can see straight from that perspective. Put a cue in your hand, put the majority of the cue out of your vision and lean over a shot with your body at an angle and now the position that gives you a correct lineup might look completely wrong. You have found the spot where the cue is lined up but it looks wrong. By your definition, I guess, this is your true vision center but that's not how most people use the term (see BilliardsAbout's post).

I'm on about 3 hrs sleep so that's about all the energy I have to type out, lol.
  
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02-27-2019, 08:57 PM

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Originally Posted by Dan White View Post
The point I'm trying to make is that there may very well not be a position that "looks right when it is right."
For that person maybe there isn’t a “vision center” by Dave’s definition. Fnding their “vision as centered as possible” might have to be the goal.

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02-28-2019, 08:11 AM

I’m not so sure this center algnment stuff is of any particular importance.

As I think Dan said, what’s important is seeing things consistently. And basically, from there, you’re counting on your PSR to put all your body parts in positions that will produce a stroke that puts the balls in the pockets and makes the CB behave how you anticipate it to behave. The artificially induced stuff may not help you a wit.

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02-28-2019, 08:40 AM

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Originally Posted by lfigueroa View Post
I’m not so sure this center algnment stuff is of any particular importance.

As I think Dan said, what’s important is seeing things consistently. And basically, from there, you’re counting on your PSR to put all your body parts in positions that will produce a stroke that puts the balls in the pockets and makes the CB behave how you anticipate it to behave. The artificially induced stuff may not help you a wit.

Lou Figueroa
The vast majority of people I've ever worked with on a snooker table that have struggled to go from average to the next level have had issues limiting them that could be traced back to vision centre issues.

You even see professionals such as Stuart Bingham turn from a no body into a world class player all because he fixed his vision centre issue.
  
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