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Handicap systems and scotch doubles
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skip100
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Handicap systems and scotch doubles - 07-16-2019, 04:48 PM

In Las Vegas this year, scotch doubles teams are grouped into three categories: teams with combined Fargo ratings under 1000, 1001-1150, and 1151-1300.

This essentially gives equal weight to each player's rating, suggesting that a 400-600 vs. 500-500 match is a tossup. Is this actually the case, or would the 600 player be more likely to drag the weaker player across the finish line?

How about a 400-800 vs. 600-600? Who would you bet on in a scotch doubles match setting up an APA 4 and Shane Van Boening vs. two good 600-rated local tournament players?
  
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07-16-2019, 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skip100 View Post
In Las Vegas this year, scotch doubles teams are grouped into three categories: teams with combined Fargo ratings under 1000, 1001-1150, and 1151-1300.

This essentially gives equal weight to each player's rating, suggesting that a 400-600 vs. 500-500 match is a tossup. Is this actually the case, or would the 600 player be more likely to drag the weaker player across the finish line?

How about a 400-800 vs. 600-600? Who would you bet on in a scotch doubles match setting up an APA 4 and Shane Van Boening vs. two good 600-rated local tournament players?
In a scotch doubles alternate shot format, I'd say you're only as good as your weakest link. Yes, the higher skilled player can no doubt set up his partner very nicely, but even if his partner makes the shots, the lack of positioning and the angles the weaker player leaves his partner figure to eventually catch up to that team.

Also, my experience in scotch doubles is that partners jell together much better if their skill levels are very similar, so they don't need to constantly consult with each other every shot. A stronger player constantly coaching his weaker partner puts too much expectations and pressure on that player, and too many thoughts are likely racing through their mind as they are shooting - which normally does not result in success.
  
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07-16-2019, 09:08 PM

All I know about scotch doubles is if its a max 11, it'll be a 4 and a 7 that win and I won’t be able to tell who the 4 is.
  
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07-17-2019, 05:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skip100 View Post
In Las Vegas this year, scotch doubles teams are grouped into three categories: teams with combined Fargo ratings under 1000, 1001-1150, and 1151-1300.

This essentially gives equal weight to each player's rating, suggesting that a 400-600 vs. 500-500 match is a tossup. Is this actually the case, or would the 600 player be more likely to drag the weaker player across the finish line?

How about a 400-800 vs. 600-600? Who would you bet on in a scotch doubles match setting up an APA 4 and Shane Van Boening vs. two good 600-rated local tournament players?
This is an interesting question, one we've played around with quite a bit. We've analyzed thousands of matches from scotch doubles tournaments to see whether we can detect a difference in performance for say, 600/400 vs 500/500. In the situation where there is no coaching or one coaching opportunity per game, we are unable to find a difference.

That doesn't mean a difference doesn't exist. But it does mean it is at best small and doing teams with a cap like this is a sensible thing to do.

Things might be different when there is coaching on every shot.


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07-17-2019, 08:20 AM

Interesting, I didn't realize there is no coaching. That should even things out a lot.
  
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07-17-2019, 08:33 AM

I dont play scotch doubles anymore.
Last time I did by the third double scotch I couldn't make a ball.


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07-17-2019, 09:08 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by skip100 View Post
Interesting, I didn't realize there is no coaching. That should even things out a lot.
There may be a shot clock in the match, but I've never heard of a scotch doubles event where coaching / discussion between partners regarding shot selection and positioning routes is not permitted.

Last edited by ChrisinNC; 07-17-2019 at 09:13 AM.
  
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Why not more doubles events in Pool Land?
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Why not more doubles events in Pool Land? - 07-17-2019, 09:22 AM

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Originally Posted by mikepage View Post
This is an interesting question, one we've played around with quite a bit. We've analyzed thousands of matches from scotch doubles tournaments to see whether we can detect a difference in performance for say, 600/400 vs 500/500. In the situation where there is no coaching or one coaching opportunity per game, we are unable to find a difference.

That doesn't mean a difference doesn't exist. But it does mean it is at best small and doing teams with a cap like this is a sensible thing to do.

Things might be different when there is coaching on every shot.
I've been thinking on why we couldn't have more Scotch Doubles tournaments out in Pool Land period because they are so popular.

Now I don't know a thing about fargorate but this is how I see it if the tournament is among players that a room owner knows. (if you can translate this to what it might mean in fargorate it might mean something to you.)

A room owner knows his players.

He has several teams of people that want to play. He can either draw teams out of
a hat or let people form their own teams and handicap them like this.

Team 1 has a 4 and 9. Team 2 has a 3 and a 12 and so forth and so on.

Why would this not work.

Team 1 = 4+9=13 Team 2 =3+12=15

Race to your handicap is out of the question

13/3= 6.5 15/2=7.5

There is a one game spread so 6.5/2=3.25 and 7.5/2=3.75

So you end up with a race to 3 vs. a race to 4 for a shorter quicker to complete tournament.

This way you can let people play, rate the play maybe even convert this to work for fargo in some way and have more doubles events out here in Pool Land.


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07-17-2019, 09:59 AM

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Originally Posted by ChrisinNC View Post
There may be a shot clock in the match, but I've never heard of a scotch doubles event where coaching / discussion between partners regarding shot selection and positioning routes is not permitted.
That's what I thought as well. I wonder what this means then:

"In the situation where there is no coaching or one coaching opportunity per game, we are unable to find a difference"
  
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07-17-2019, 10:17 AM

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That's what I thought as well. I wonder what this means then:

"In the situation where there is no coaching or one coaching opportunity per game, we are unable to find a difference"
Lots of scotch doubles tournament have "no coaching." This generally means you can confer quietly while the other team is at the table but not while it is your turn.

Some tournaments allow one time out per game. This can be called by either player and is often used when deciding whether to take stripes or solids.

Tournaments we have analyzed have been in one of those categories.

The CSI events starting now allow coaching but the nonshooting player may not approach the table, i.e., must confer from the chair or the area of the chair.


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07-17-2019, 10:36 AM

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All I know about scotch doubles is if its a max 11, it'll be a 4 and a 7 that win and I wont be able to tell who the 4 is.
A few years ago when I played APA, me and my buddie's gf got 3rd in the APA scotch doubles tournament as a 7 and a 4. We lost in the semi-finals to 2 guys who were both fives and I believe it was won by a 6/5 combo. I believe that a 6/5 would have an advantage over a 7/4 if the handicaps are truly representative of their skill. Additionally, I believe that two 600 fargo players would have big advantage over an 800/400 combo.


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07-17-2019, 02:28 PM

I play in a lot of charity tournaments and most are doubles, alternate shot (which is really the only "real" way to play doubles to me).

In those events two medium level players seem to go further than a strong and weak player. And if you get two med/high players they are better than a strong and medium player also. I have played where we had a pro player a few times and a C player matched up against two B or B+ players and most of the time the pro and C player lost.

My son and I beat a duo of Karen Corr and a C player, I think he was a B at the time and I am a B+/A-, so the average was the same but the player skill at the table at the time made the difference. When the C player shoots they are likely to make a mistake that the B players can take advantage of.

In a clear open table, a pro and a C player may be able to do well, especially if the table is turned over with a run of 3 or 4 or 5 balls left. With a full rack, the duo or two medium skill players is likely to do better.


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