Has the quality difference between "custom" and "production" become negligible?

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megatron69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll give you yet another example. There are literally dozens of companies that make the 1911 design pistol, most made by the large companies everyone's heard of, such as Colt, S&W, SIG, Springfield Armory, etc. And they all produce 1911s of varying degrees of quality, and most of them are pretty good firearms.

But none of those manufacturers can produce a 1911 of the same quality as Les baer, or Dan Wesson, or Wilson Combat or NightHawk. The reason is simple: The custom gunworks employ master craftsman that spend enormous amounts of time working with every gun by hand using their years/decades of experience to produce the best possible product tthey know how.

At the large production companies sometimes they don't employ a single master craftsman; just a lot of Journeyman level craftsman. They rely heavily on CNC machines and high tech to produce their guns, which allows them to keep their costs down. As a result, the difference in quality can be measured, sometimes even seen both in fit and finish as well as in performance.
 
M

megatron69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
The folks at Pechauer have been building cues longer than virtually all custom cue makers. And have easily made 20 times the number of cues as all the custom builders put together. You think they might be able to build a cue?

Call Dan Janes at Joss. He loves hearing he’s a production cue maker.
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I'm certain they can. I've owned several Pechauers over the last 30 odd years. Always liked Peaches.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
I'll give you yet another example. There are literally dozens of companies that make the 1911 design pistol, most made by the large companies everyone's heard of, such as Colt, S&W, SIG, Springfield Armory, etc. And they all produce 1911s of varying degrees of quality, and most of them are pretty good firearms.

But none of those manufacturers can produce a 1911 of the same quality as Les baer, or Dan Wesson, or Wilson Combat or NightHawk. The reason is simple: The custom gunworks employ master craftsman that spend enormous amounts of time working with every gun by hand using their years/decades of experience to produce the best possible product tthey know how.

At the large production companies sometimes they don't employ a single master craftsman; just a lot of Journeyman level craftsman. They rely heavily on CNC machines and high tech to produce their guns, which allows them to keep their costs down. As a result, the difference in quality can be measured, sometimes even seen both in fit and finish as well as in performance.
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Cool discussion. Take it to gun newsgroup. We’re talking about cues. Thanks.
 
JusticeNJ

JusticeNJ

Four Points/Steel Joints
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Uh huh....magic glue.
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Not disagreeing with you at all, but in the guitar world, people will shell out $$$$$$$ to buy custom acoustics made with hot hide glue because it supposedly transfers vibrations better and delivers more volume and better "tone." I say "tone" because "tone" to guitars is "hit" to cues. As in no one can define it precisely, but trust me, this guitar I'm selling you has killer tone.

I have a custom Gibson J45 Vintage made with hot hide glue. I've also got a Hummingbird and Martin HD28. The J45 is cool and sounds great, but is it worth nearly twice what I paid for the other two? I don't think so. (I can hear someone typing up a response about how wrong my opinion is).

That said, I'm skeptical about mystery glue only a few people know about.
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
I agree with you.

My point is that I can't think of a single performance-oriented product that doesn't benefit from more human interaction during production rather than less human interaction. Not one. Okay, maybe performance tires. I don't know if anyone is making tires largely by hand. But I tend to doubt it.

So IMHO, human craftsman probably still have the upper hand over machines when it comes to turning out the best possible pool cues, simply because why would a pool cue be any different from anything else on Earth?

Now, understand, I'm not saying that all custom cues are better than all production cues, or even most of them. I'm simply saying that it's probable that the very best cue-makers probably consistently produce a cue better than most production cues.
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If you are looking for something that precise to shoot a cue ball, you probably need to be in the Smithsonian Museum of Science or something like that. Pool players don't carry around calibrators and stuff. They carry chalk and a little money maybe.
 
M

megatron69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
HawaiianEye said:
If you are looking for something that precise to shoot a cue ball, you probably need to be in the Smithsonian Museum of Science or something like that. Pool players don't carry around calibrators and stuff. They carry chalk and a little money maybe.
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Maybe. Maybe not.

Stradivarius instruments are unanimously considered the finest stringed instruments ever made, and were built back the 18th century, IIRC. No computers, no high tech CNC machinery, nothing. Just a craftsman whose instruments still can't be equaled, never mind surpassed.

Are there not pool cues that were made in the past that have a similar legendary status? Weren't the original Balabushkas (or some other cue) revered in a similar way at one time (possibly they still are, not my wheelhouse)?
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
Hahaha. Tap out accepted.
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Nah. Just didn’t feel like discussing guns. They have no relevance in a discussion about pool cues. I’ve built them. We may as well be discussing the merits of the single sided swingarm, and its effect on break speed.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
Maybe. Maybe not.

Stradivarius instruments are unanimously considered the finest stringed instruments ever made, and were built back the 18th century, IIRC. No computers, no high tech CNC machinery, nothing. Just a craftsman whose instruments still can't be equaled, never mind surpassed.

Are there not pool cues that were made in the past that have a similar legendary status? Weren't the original Balabushkas (or some other cue) revered in a similar way at one time (possibly they still are, not my wheelhouse)?
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Balabushkas are sought after because of nostalgia and scarcity, not their excellence of construction or playability. They are collectors items. A Burton Spain, from the same era, would have much better construction methods.
 
M

megatron69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
Balabushkas are sought after because of nostalgia and scarcity, not their excellence of construction or playability. They are collectors items. A Burton Spain, from the same era, would have much better construction methods.
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Ok, then, a B. Spain. never played one or even saw one, I don't think, but were Spains considered the best playing cue at the time?
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
Ok, then, a B. Spain. never played one or even saw one, I don't think, but were Spains considered the best playing cue at the time?
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You haven’t heard of Burton Spain, but are talking about the 40-50 best cuemakers in the world. SMH.
 
M

megatron69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
You haven’t heard of Burton Spain, but are talking about the 40-50 best cuemakers in the world. SMH.
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No, you misunderstand me again, I've heard of Burton Spain, but I haven't seen one or played with one. And I wasn't sure exactly what Burton Spain's 'ranking' was in the world of cue-makers. just that he was supposed to be very good.

And I did freely admit in my very first post in this thread that I wasn't up on all the great cue-makers. Very first sentence I believe. I've heard of plenty of them, even bought some cues from some well-known makers, but never bothered to figure out just where any of them ranked. There's a difference between that and not knowing who they are. Try to work on your comprehension.
 
measureman

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
336Robin said:
Some do a few things radically different but you're right. I had a cue maker
tell me once that no one was allowed in his shop for basically one reason only. He
said that the world of glue was where it was at. He said there were glues out there
that were so sophisticated in how they acted after they dried that it would be hard to
believe how the small differences in glues translated to cue hit. This guys cues all hit
soft and he didn't want anyone finding out what he was using. He told me before he
sold the first cue he experimented with glue for over a year and had thousands of
dollars in deciding what not to use. He said the glues he used he was certain no one
else would even suspect that he would use it because of the consistency out of the
can.
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Sounds like a hype job to get a few hundo more for the cue.
Did Deano make cues?
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
No, you misunderstand me again, I've heard of Burton Spain, but I haven't seen one or played with one. And I wasn't sure exactly what Burton Spain's 'ranking' was in the world of cue-makers. just that he was supposed to be very good.

And I did freely admit in my very first post in this thread that I wasn't up on all the great cue-makers. Very first sentence I believe. I've heard of plenty of them, even bought some cues from some well-known makers, but never bothered to figure out just where any of them ranked. There's a difference between that and not knowing who they are. Try to work on your comprehension.
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No, I don’t misunderstand you. You just seem to think that knowing something about guns, cars, or open heart surgery qualifies you to make blanket statements about cues and their construction. Because said logic applies to guns, or Ferrari’s, well then....it holds true for woodworking.

Without knowing Burton Spain, you don’t know who he mentored. Or built blanks for. I told you that a cue company can friction fit a cue on a tapered core, on centre, and you kinda said “big whoop”. If you only had an idea of how much precision it takes to build cues with less than 0.002” of runout at the joint, across thousands of cues, well....we don’t have a lot to talk about.

Literally all of their joints are interchangeable, and fit flush. Name ONE other cue maker that can say that. But, as an aside, even Eric Crisp of Sugartree Cues called Mezz one of the best cuemakers in the world, custom makers included.
 
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M

megatron69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shawn Armstrong said:
No, I don’t misunderstand you. You just seem to think that knowing something about guns, cars, or open heart surgery qualifies you to make blanket statements about cues and their construction. Because said logic applies to guns, or Ferrari’s, well then....it holds true for woodworking.

Without knowing Burton Spain, you don’t know who he mentored. Or built blanks for. I told you that a cue company can friction fit a cue on a tapered core, on centre, and you kinda said “big whoop”. If you only had an idea of how much precision it takes to build cues with less than 0.002” of runout at the joint, across thousands of cues, well....we don’t have a lot to talk about.

Literally all of their joints are interchangeable, and fit flush. Name ONE other cue maker that can say that. But, as an aside, even Eric Crisp of Sugartree Cues called Mezz one of the best cuemakers in the world, custom makers included.
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I said that I know something about how high quality products are made and what it takes to make them. And that usually to get the highest degree of performance and craftsmanship it takes a great craftsman, not a piece of high tech equipment.

Now if cue-making is so different from most other high-performance products under the sun in that regard, I'd like to hear how cues are so different from everything else. Because historic precedent is vastly against that idea.
 
HawaiianEye

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'll settle it right now as far as I'm concerned...for playability, not looks, price, resale, name, finish, etc.

Whatever cue I play my highest quality pool with is a "quality" cue to me.

I don't care if Burton Spain made it, the Queen of Spain made it, or Willy Wonka made it in ithe Chocolate Factory. I play pool and I endorse this message.
 
Shawn Armstrong

Shawn Armstrong

AZB deceased - stopped posting 5/13/2022
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
I said that I know something about how high quality products are made and what it takes to make them. And that usually to get the highest degree of performance and craftsmanship it takes a great craftsman, not a piece of high tech equipment.

Now if cue-making is so different from most other high-performance products under the sun in that regard, I'd like to hear how cues are so different from everything else. Because historic precedent is vastly against that idea.
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And in your assumptions, you don’t take into account that the big production guys were once those little pioneer custom guys, but they did it well enough, day in and day out to have a second generation carrying on their traditions, and advancing the craft as they go. No, believe that the guy who has made 20 cues per year for the past 13 years has more knowledge and wisdom than 2 generations of guys that have only built cues for a living.
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
megatron69 said:
I'll give you yet another example. There are literally dozens of companies that make the 1911 design pistol, most made by the large companies everyone's heard of, such as Colt, S&W, SIG, Springfield Armory, etc. And they all produce 1911s of varying degrees of quality, and most of them are pretty good firearms.

But none of those manufacturers can produce a 1911 of the same quality as Les baer, or Dan Wesson, or Wilson Combat or NightHawk. The reason is simple: The custom gunworks employ master craftsman that spend enormous amounts of time working with every gun by hand using their years/decades of experience to produce the best possible product tthey know how.

At the large production companies sometimes they don't employ a single master craftsman; just a lot of Journeyman level craftsman. They rely heavily on CNC machines and high tech to produce their guns, which allows them to keep their costs down. As a result, the difference in quality can be measured, sometimes even seen both in fit and finish as well as in performance.
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Damn, you had to talk about 1911's. :D
Used to own Colt Commander. Sold it when I got Sig P220.
Really wanted a Wesson though.
Or Ed Brown or Wilson. :D
Wesson sold to CZ and CZ makes limited number of Wesson 1911's now.
Freaking nice Commanders with bobtail.
But, those Ed Brown Commander! :cool: https://www.edbrown.com/executive-commander/
 
JoeyInCali

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
HawaiianEye said:
I'll settle it right now as far as I'm concerned...for playability, not looks, price, resale, name, finish, etc.

Whatever cue I play my highest quality pool with is a "quality" cue to me.

I don't care if Burton Spain made it, the Queen of Spain made it, or Willy Wonka made it in ithe Chocolate Factory. I play pool and I endorse this message.
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Well, I'm glad you found your great playing cue.
My cue maker is still dragging his foot on that ebony cue with calfskin wrap.
Fkkr better finish it next year.
 
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