SJM's Slant on the CSI 8-ball Scandal

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I just got home from ten days at the Rio.

This is not an easy thread for me because I am forced to take a dim view of the actions of two good friends who are two of the jewels in our sport. They are two gentlemen who must still be judged on their full bodies of work, which are outstanding. I would do just about anything to support Mark Griffin and Ralf Souquet who, despite the truly disturbing events at the just completed CSI 8-ball event, remain two of the great men of our sport. That said, the events of July 25 at the Rio in the CSI 8-ball invitational merit comment, if only for the prospect of the betterment of our sport.

Though there were others involved on the periphery, the players in this melodrama were Ralf Souquet, Ko Pin-Yi, Shane Van Boening and Mark Griffin.

Ralf Souquet is one of my all-time favorite players and one of the most professional in his behavior among all the pros I've ever seen, but he acted with a complete lack of professionalism here, and without naming names, some of his fellow pros with whom I spoke are quite offended by the way he handled this, which compromised the event itself.

Similarly, Mark Griffin is my favorite American promoter, the very model of excellence in event production in America and a great visionary in our sport. The pro events he put together at the Rio brought most of the greats of Europe, North America and Asia together, producing a breathtaking lineup of superstars that delighted all who had the honor of watching the matches. I don't recall ever disagreeing with any of Mark's actions, but today's the day, for he allowed an already eliminated player to re-enter a tournament and strong-armed a player who had earned his spot in the semifinal into playing a semifinal against a player who had not earned the right to play.

Who was most at fault in what happened here? That's a close call, but it's probably Souquet.

Plenty of Notice Concerning the Match Schedule
The fact that the second of the pro events would end on the evening of July 25 was known months ago. The exact match schedule was known on Wednesday, July 16, almost a week before the 8-ball event even began. Ralf, therefore, knew that a potential conflict existed and that he would be unavailable to play in the 8-ball event if he was one of the last four. My view is that it was Ralf's duty to inform CSI of the situation immediately. Ralf was not blindsided with regard to the tournament schedule.

Did Ralf Fear He'd Not Be Permitted to Play?
Now I'll speculate, for I don't know whether this is so, but I'd guess that Ralf feared that he might be replaced if he advised CSI ahead of the event that he'd be unavailable to play should he be one of the last four. There were, indeed, some other top pros present at the Rio, Oscar Dominguez and Jason Klatt among them, so replacing Ralf was certainly easily accomplished if CSI wished to do so. One must presume that either Dominguez or Klatt would have been delighted to play. Of course, if the international balance needed to be maintained and a European was needed to complete the field, Spanish sharpshooter Juan Carlos Esposito, who competed in the US Open 8-ball a year ago at the Rio, was present.

By not advising CSI as he should have, Ralf did great damage to the CSI 8-ball event, and his unprofessional conduct put Mark Griffin in a difficult spot, one that, sadly, Mark handled as poorly as was humanly possible.

Bringing an already eliminated player back into a tournament is not something I'd seen even once in my 38 years of travelling to hundreds of pro pool tournaments, and it really rubbed me the wrong way. I was so upset, I chose not to even watch the final, despite the fact that I had purchased a ringside seat for the entire ten days of pro pool, the first nine of which were nothing less than glorious, and I will recount them in a trip report thread soon. But then came the tenth day, when the CSI 8-ball event became, in my view, a complete sham.

The Sham Itself
The event had reached the single elimination stage so if a player doesn't show up for a match, that's a forfeit. Ko Pin-Yi should have advanced to the final when Souquet, who chose to make his flight to Asia instead, didn't show. Yes, we'd have yet another Ko vs. Ko final, but they earned it. Taiwan's players were simply phenomenal and dominant, with both Ko's reaching the 10-ball final and JL Chang running 6 racks and out to beat Orcullo in their 9-ball challenge match. Taiwan was going to win the 8-ball, too, having the last two players remaining in the field, until Mark Griffin decided that an already eliminated player would get a second life and compete in the semifinals, a terrible decision and one that smelled.

Assuring the pay-per-view purchasers a match should not have even been a consideration. If he felt guilty, then after the Ko vs. Ko final, perhaps Mark could have had Shane play a short challenge match against Darren Appleton or Mike Dechaine, both of whom, like Shane, had gone 2-1 but had been eliminated. Although none of these three should have ever been considered for the life-after-death treatment that Van Boening was ultimately given, Mike and Darren were every bit as worthy of a semifinal spot as Shane.

Ko Pin-Yi
We must now include Ko Pin-YI in the conversation of who is the world's best player. Perhaps he is the best. His composure was truly remarkable all week but Mark Griffin found a way to break it by asking him to play a semifinal against an already eliminated player. Ko, greatly to his credit, refused. Why would he have done otherwise? It was only when he was strong-armed, arguably blackmailed, with the threat of non-payment of his prize money, that he chose to play. In short, they made him an offer he couldn't refuse. One can only imagine what kind of mood he was in once forced to play, and Van Boening's win against the greatly agitated, and arguably furious, Ko was a joke. Let's hope that Ko Pin-YI is not so demoralized that he chooses not to play in America, for surely this looked like American favoritism to him and his fellow Taiwanese pros.

Shane Van Boening
It was a lost week for Shane, who'd lost his challenge match to Ko Pin-YI, lost to Ko Pin-YI in the match that determined who would advance to the 10-ball semifinal, and was eliminated in the round robin stage of the 8-ball event. I'm sure he found the unexpected invitation to come back from the dead a godsend, but, in my opinion, he should have declined the invitation or dumped to ensure the success of the deserving. Still, I'm inclined to give him a free pass here for it wasn't easy to do the right thing. Shane's a great player, but he doesn't seem to get it done when all the top Asians are in an event in which he participates, and while his blindly devoted fans will find a way to defend his right to have come back from the dead in the event, this was a serious miscarriage of justice, and it's a safe bet that Shane knew it as well as anyone.

Conclusion
What happened was disgraceful but I'm not a zero tolerance kind of guy. To me, both Ralf Souquet and Mark Griffin botched this badly, but I have to blame Ralf more than Mark for this sad episode, because it was Ralf that placed Mark in this difficult position. These guys, who remain two of our sport's most valued people, will learn from what happened on July 25 at the Rio, and will come out of it wiser.

As for me, it's the first time in my life that I walked out during a final. I hope it's the last.
 
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imissedthe9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ko Pin-Yi
We must now include Ko Pin-YI in the conversation of who is the world's best player. Perhaps he is the best. His composure was truly remarkable all week but Mark Griffin found a way to break it by asking him to play a semifinal against an already eliminated player. Ko, greatly to his credit, refused. Why would he have done otherwise? It was only when he was strong-armed, arguably blackmailed, with the threat of non-payment of his prize money, that he chose to play. In short, they made him an offer he couldn't refuse. One can only imagine what kind of mood he was in once forced to play, and Van Boening's win against the greatly agitated, and arguably furious, Ko was a joke. Let's hope that Ko Pin-YI is not so demoralized that he chooses not to play in America, for surely this looked like American favoritism to him and his fellow Taiwanese pros.

Sad that KO couldnt even forfeit the match or else he would not get paid

Even tho Ralf forfeited and got paid.
 

vincentwu817

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sad that KO couldnt even forfeit the match or else he would not get paid

Even tho Ralf forfeited and got paid.

And that is why the Taiwanese players don't like to come to the US to play. The language barrier makes them easy to manipulate. On the other hand, most of the Asian countries treat the Taiwanese players like celebrities when they go play in their country.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Two-stage event, 4 players from the first stage are slotted to fill up the bracket in the second stage, one from each group, no byes. First place forfeits, so you go to second place. That's how every multi-stage event works, including the World Nine-ball tourney in Qatar that just concluded.

This was not the same as an elimination-style tournament where one player forfeits and you bring back an already-eliminated player. That would have been wrong, and that's the way some of you are making it sound. But that's not what happened here.

Two. Stage. Event. First-stage: Rankings. Second stage: No byes, fill all brackets.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
This was not the same as an elimination-style tournament where one player forfeits and you bring back an already-eliminated player. That would have been wrong, and that's the way some of you are making it sound. But that's not what happened here.

This is exactly what happened because the CSI 8-ball had reached the single elimination event and the brackets were already drawn.

In addition, this was not a multi-stage event. The World Nine Ball Championships is because an entire tournament is contested to fill the last few spots in the main draw, in which nearly all of the participants were exempt from having to qualify. This was an event in which everyone who showed up was on equal footing. In a multi-stage, some players need to win more matches than others to win the title.

I spoke to dozens in the tournament room, some of them pro players, some billiard industry people, some tournament officials and some fans. I did not encounter even one person who agreed with how this was handled.
 
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BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ralph forfeited before he played, right? So the brackets were finalized once they had confirmation of who would play in them. If Ralph had forfeited after beating little Ko in the semis, it probably wouldn't have been right to bump little Ko up to the finals. But this was the transition between stages, and filling up all brackets with first-stage entrants is the norm.

I think everyone's initial reaction was to say "what happened?" And CSI didn't make explicit what would happen if someone forfeited between stages (and perhaps didn't even consider the possibility). But my guess, and I'd be willing to be proven wrong, is that once people think it through, most people familiar with tournaments will agree that this was the right choice and consistent with other practices.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
An interesting point that I never even considered.

Yeah that is a good point. If Ralph forfeited but still got paid up to his finish, then big Ko should have been given the same treatment, even if the reason for the forfeit was different.
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Far and away, based upon the facts presented thus far, Ralf Souquet is the primary root cause problem here. He should have never, ever entered that part of the tournament knowing he wouldn't be able to compete if he made it to a certain stage. Given CSI's actions in the past year to not invite certain players due to their conduct, I would think Souquet's actions in this tournament would warrant him being taken off the invite list for quite some time.

I was starting to agree with the OP's line of reasoning until he suggested SVB dumping his match would have been the right thing to do. That is ridiculous and would have put SVB on part with Ralf Souquet with respect to douche bag moves. I've seen nothing presented that said SVB lobbied to be inserted back into the tournament. He was drafted and like a good soldier, he played.

I'm not sure enough other facts are known to pass further judgment. Hopefully, Griffin will post here to clarify the background, facts and reasoning behind the decision made. If he doesn't, I think the silence will judge the situation adequately. If he does, and the explanation sounds plausible, then opinions may be formed.
 

StraightPoolIU

Brent
Silver Member
Ralph forfeited before he played, right? So the brackets were finalized once they had confirmation of who would play in them. If Ralph had forfeited after beating little Ko in the semis, it probably wouldn't have been right to bump little Ko up to the finals. But this was the transition between stages, and filling up all brackets with first-stage entrants is the norm.

I think everyone's initial reaction was to say "what happened?" And CSI didn't make explicit what would happen if someone forfeited between stages (and perhaps didn't even consider the possibility). But my guess, and I'd be willing to be proven wrong, is that once people think it through, most people familiar with tournaments will agree that this was the right choice and consistent with other practices.
I agree with this line of reasoning. The knockout stage had not yet started so it seems logical thst the group's second place finisher would take the spot. Personally I think the whole issue is a bit overblown.
 

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
I was out in Vegas and paid little attention to these tounaments and after coming home, I havnt watched at all so I was unaware this happened. After reading this, it's pretty insane how it all went down. I can understand as the promoter, his job is to get people watching and Ralph leaving early puts mark in a tough spot. CSI was kind of in a no win situation but based only on what you've wrote, I would say they made a bad choice allowing Shane to play. Ralph on the other hand made the worst choice.
 

molinatx4206

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ko Pin-Yi
. Ko, greatly to his credit, refused. Why would he have done otherwise? It was only when he was strong-armed, arguably blackmailed, with the threat of non-payment of his prize money, that he chose to play. In short, they made him an offer he couldn't refuse. s.



That is absolutely disgraceful.... Those crooks showed their true colors....
 

yobagua

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
he (Shane) should have declined the invitation or "dumped" to ensure the success of the deserving.

Shane should have "dumped"?! Ok your whole post just lost its integrity and relevance.

Obvious this is how it plays. Its an Invitational. Mark Griffin did the invitations. Its his way or the highway. Fine if thats understood from the get go then one can accept the conditional.

Its up to the ticket buyers to decide if we want to support the event and the players decide if they want to participate.
 

lost

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm out of the loop. Did the player's pay an entry fee for this event, or was it all "added money".
To me it's one thing if it was purely an invitational, and no money came from the players...and another if they paid an entry fee to cover a portion of the prize money.
 

vincentwu817

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm out of the loop. Did the player's pay an entry fee for this event, or was it all "added money".
To me it's one thing if it was purely an invitational, and no money came from the players...and another if they paid an entry fee to cover a portion of the prize money.

I'm pretty sure players paid to enter. When talking to the Taiwanese players they were complaining that they had a "mandatory" one hour lesson daily AND they had to pay an entry. Not to mention most of these players spent thousands on the trip.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
he (Shane) should have declined the invitation or "dumped" to ensure the success of the deserving.

Shane should have "dumped"?! Ok your whole post just lost its integrity and relevance.

Obvious this is how it plays. Its an Invitational. Mark Griffin did the invitations. Its his way or the highway. Fine if thats understood from the get go then one can accept the conditional.

Its up to the ticket buyers to decide if we want to support the event and the players decide if they want to participate.

This was a rare case where a dump (which Shane and nobody else knew of, and against Ko, two silly mistakes sprinkled in with exceptional play would be all it took) would have given the fans a great pool match to watch without compromising the position of those who'd gotten to the semis without being previously eliminated from the event. It would have been an act of great integrity in this unusual set of circumstances, but declining the invitation to compete on the basis of not having earned it would have shown even greater integrity. The act of lowest integrity was, unfortunately, the course taken but, as I've said, I give Shane a free pass because doing the right thing was so difficult under the circumstances. A dump here would have constituted a type of "white lie," a term for a well-intentioned lie, and that type of lie is employed regularly by people of great character.

I do, however, see where you're coming from. Mark could have defined different parameters for the event had Ralf informed him of his unavailability for the semis. Ralf backed Mark into a corner here, but let's say Ralf had informed Mark. Do you think Mark would have told the sixteen players that advancing from Group C would be easier than advancing from the other groups? I seriously doubt it, and the rest of the players would have been fuming. Mark would have surely replaced Ralf in the field to make the event fair. As I said, Oscar and Klatt were there, so replacing Ralf would have been easy.
 

wincardona

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This was a rare case where a dump (which Shane and nobody else knew of, and against Ko, two silly mistakes sprinkled in with exceptional play would be all it took) would have given the fans a great pool match to watch without compromising the position of those who'd gotten to the semis without being previously eliminated from the event. It would have been an act of great integrity in this unusual set of circumstances, but declining the invitation to compete on the basis of not having earned it would have shown even greater integrity. The act of lowest integrity was, unfortunately, the course taken but, as I've said, I give Shane a free pass because doing the right thing was so difficult under the circumstances. A dump here would have constituted a type of "white lie," a term for a well-intentioned lie, and that type of lie is employed regularly by people of great character.

I do, however, see where you're coming from. Mark could have defined different parameters for the event had Ralf informed him of his unavailability for the semis. Ralf backed Mark into a corner here, but let's say Ralf had informed Mark. Do you think Mark would have told the sixteen players that advancing from Group C would be easier than advancing from the other groups? I seriously doubt it, and the rest of the players would have been fuming. Mark would have surely replaced Ralf in the field to make the event fair. As I said, Oscar and Klatt were there, so replacing Ralf would have been easy.

Mr P, you state a strong case and you're playing real good, however, it was only an invitational which is a compromised tournament to begin with, which was evident in how it was handled. Taken to court you would clearly win the morality battle on how it was handled, however, on the decision to advance Shane, is imo in the 'grey' area. Just that point alone should give Mark the leverage to make such a decision, in spite of it's ugliness. It's on that point alone that I would give Mark a pass, all the other stuff that was mentioned ..i'm stayin out of. I'm sure that things will work out well, CSI is bringing to us what we only dream of watching, we should give it a chance to 'blossom' and allow things to work themselves out. Sometimes loosing a little dignity..is a fair trade off.:eek::smile:

Bill Incardona
 

vincentwu817

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mr P, you state a strong case and you're playing real good, however, it was only an invitational which is a compromised tournament to begin with, which was evident in how it was handled. Taken to court you would clearly win the morality battle on how it was handled, however, on the decision to advance Shane, is imo in the 'grey' area. Just that point alone should give Mark the leverage to make such a decision, in spite of it's ugliness. It's on that point alone that I would give Mark a pass, all the other stuff that was mentioned ..i'm stayin out of. I'm sure that things will work out well, CSI is bringing to us what we only dream of watching, we should give it a chance to 'blossom' and allow things to work themselves out. Sometimes loosing a little dignity..is a fair trade off.:eek::smile:

Bill Incardona

Well said. While I did not agree with the decision, it was nevertheless a joy to be able to capture part of the event live to see some of the best players in the world play. On top of that, they were putting on some stellar performances. I guess the takeaway is to have more rules in tact before the tournament starts to prevent issues such as this (if there isn't one and we don't know about it yet). Another thing that bothered me was having one referee "reffing" two matches at once. At the 10 ball event, there were numerous times where the players were just sitting for minutes waiting for the referee to finish racking the other table. One or two of the referees were unprofessionally on their phone while doing their job. Aside from that, props to CSI to being able to bring some of the best players in the world together in a setting like this.
 
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