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jrctherake
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09-26-2019, 09:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory in DC View Post
People always come into threads like this to say that handicaps are for wimps and to just play even up tourneys. Thing is, in my 30+ years of playing pool, the large majority of the action I've seen is handicapped. It just so happens to be handicapped in the form of one-on-one tournaments.

Why is it perfectly fine to use weight to generate action in individual matchups, but somehow wrong to use weight to fill up a tournament?

If playing even is super-cool no matter how long the odds, then where is the line of players looking to play Dennis, or even the local shortstop, even up for $100 or $1,000 a rack?
Well, Cory, we all have our own opinions and I wouldn't have it any other way. But, Comparing handicapping in tournaments to private gambling matches is apples to oranges or maybe even apples to bricks because when I match up with someone, its only me and my opponent that has to agree to the terms that "we" come up with.

On the other hand, in a tournament, you/me/we don't have a say-so in the matter. In a tournament, as we all know, those decisions are made by just a few or even one individual and I've witnessed that being brutal to the players on the up and up.

As far as playing pros even up, well, I'm all for even matches with "some" of the pros but, when playing a "mid-level" to "top tier" pro, there should be weight unless you are crazy.

I understand about room health and handicapped tournaments. Yeah, I get it but, I don't have to like it.

I just feel like I'm being cheated when I have to give some azzhat weight just because they don't put more effort into their game because they "know" it will be made even by "HANDICAPPING".

Hell, maybe we should all just stop practicing. That way everyone would suck and no handicapping would be needed, right? Lol.....naw, even then, there would be at least a few crybabies doing their "cry baby dance".

On a side note:

One of the rooms I visit ever so often calls the bar boxes "cry baby lane".....it's suitable IMO.

Jeff


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
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jrctherake
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09-26-2019, 10:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Stu,

I chuckle a little when I read about toy tables and toy table players. I doubt seriously if the people talking like that have tangled with a short track artist like Dave. Run racks, leave you with an almost impossible kick, run some more racks. After somebody has chilled in a chair a few hours having never gotten a real shot in that time they may sing a different tune!

I hope Dave and Keith manage to get together. Even both way over the hill it might open a few eyes.

Hu
Hu,

When I talk about toy table players, I'm not talking about killers.....lol....

I wonder if Dave or Kieth can play on 9' tables? Do you think they can?...lol...of course they can. They were killers on 9'ers too.

Again, if a person is a killer.......well, their a killer on all tables.

Another case of apples to oranges.

Jeff


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?

Last edited by jrctherake; 09-26-2019 at 10:43 PM.
  
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09-26-2019, 10:43 PM

I play in a handicapped tournament even though Iím not a big fan of them. The TD does a good job of rating the players. Thereís 2 or 3 players that are a little questionable, but none of them have ever won it. Around here most of the tournaments are restricted to where I canít play or they are handicapped. Not much to choose from if I want to play. I donít complain about the handicappes. If there is someone who I feel is really under ranked I try to buy them in the auction and cash in with them.
  
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09-26-2019, 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbpoolleague View Post
Never happened. Never will.

So did the APA team that got disqualified after winning a spot in the finals for $25K in Las Vegas sandbag or did the just get cheated by the APA?
  
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sixpack
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09-26-2019, 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by couldnthinkof01 View Post
Every sandbagger in the country should be on their way to
Griffs.
$1000 entry
580? and below.
This is what you've trained for!!!!
When is that? I'm the best 580 in the country!


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09-26-2019, 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpack View Post
When is that? I'm the best 580 in the country!
September 28-29, 2019.
Get on out there and get that $$$$!
https://www.griffslv.com/upcoming-tournaments.html
  
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  (#67)
Speedie
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09-27-2019, 04:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by newcuer View Post
So people are working their 40 hours a week job which for most is not of great joy. So on top of that, they play in weekly tournaments (drive there and take time being there) where they purposely sandbag in something I presume they enjoy as a hobby but not that they are sandbagging, probably don't enjoy.

All to...wait for one to four times a year to play at an advantage??? Doesn't sound like fun nor very profitable.

Why not just take all that time sandbagging the weekly tournaments and get a part time job where you don't just increase you chances of winning but are guaranteed of getting money?
Maybe I'm all wet behind the ears as I'm a new player, but I tend to agree with this.

Take one of the bigger local amateur tournaments as an example. $5,000 first prize with these breakdowns for handicaps: Fargo 0-519 (C players) play to 6, 520-619 (B players) play to 8, and 620-685 (A players) play to 10. Above 685 ineligible.

If you were solidly in the B bracket and wanted to "adjust" your rating down to a C, you'd have to lose a lot to lower rated players. Let's say as a conservative estimate you'd have to flunk 30 far less competitive tournaments against lesser players to achieve your goals. I suspect the number would be much higher than that, but still.

At an average entry of $10 a pop, and maybe 3 hours each including travel and play time, you'd spend $300 and 90 hours trying to gain a 2 rack advantage for 1 shot at $5,000. Even if you value your time at just $15 an hour, which you could probably make Ubering instead, that's a total of $1,650 to gain 2 on the wire.

That's not even taking into account the bad habits that would be getting ingrained by deliberately losing games, habits that you'd have to suddenly drop and bring your 100% best game come the big one. Or the strong likelihood that a decent prize like that would bring out the local shortstop who could spot you 6 in a race to 10 and still beat you like a rented mule.

Seems like a pretty foolish way of doing things to me when that time and money could be spent practicing and playing to win instead, no?

Edited to add: An honest player doing the reverse i.e. playing to win would be unlikely to bump their rating much if they were beating up on weaker opposition. Plus they might win 5 of those 30 tournaments and turn a profit vs entry fees, and more importantly develop good habits. Nothing breeds winning like winning after all.

Last edited by Speedie; 09-27-2019 at 05:29 AM.
  
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09-27-2019, 05:46 AM

Under many slightly different contexts, the issue of handicapping has need discussed here, ad nauseum.

How many weeks in a row are you going to play an event that you don't cash in?
  
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09-27-2019, 05:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
One feature of Fargo is that they can look for sandbagging. If a player has a much better record in big-money events than in smaller events, it can be detected. They know exactly where you played well and who you were playing for every game in the system.
Does an alarm/alert go off or appear near a players name automatically in the system or does it require the human intervention of someone saying "I think this person might be cheating".

If it's the latter, how is it then investigated and handled? Is there an office staff back at Fargo HQ that handles these requests? After too many times, what happens to the player? Are they barred from Fargo events? Do they get a permanent "*" next to their name?


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09-27-2019, 06:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrctherake View Post
Of course they play better on a BB. It's because they spend almost all their time on toy tables so they can feel good about those "seemingly" hard outs, when in general, those outs are in reach for everyone but complete beginners.

I love it when a toy tabler wonders over to the big tables. Lol....it don't take many games or even just a few shots before you hear "lets move to the 7'er".... then, after a few games over there...lol...we hear, "I need soom weight". Thats usually when I tell them "nope, you need some practice or actually, a lot of practice and maybe even a coach".

Jeff
Read it again.
We/they spend all our/their time on 9 footers. That's where our fargos got established. Then we play in BB events and are underrated. This isn't done to cheat, it's just how it happens.

This applies most when speaking of the big handicapped tournaments like state BCA tournaments played on the bar boxes. Sure, once enough games are in the system it should even out. The point is that 100% of my games in Fargo were from 9' Diamonds. I played in a large BB event and finished 5/6th or better in three of four events. After the tournament my Fargo was raised 30pts. The adjustment was made but I was still able to cash in that week due to the lower rating.

As far as running no handicap tournaments, have fun with your 6 man fields and meager payouts. The days of paying just for the experience are long past. I donated to the large Chicago tournaments that had pros regularly in attendance for many years. At best there may have been one game on the wire to 11 for guys my speed when playing against a known pro. The new generation wants everything to be fair in all things. Outcome equality without effort equality.


Science flies men to the moon. Religion flies men into buildings.

Last edited by JolietJames; 09-27-2019 at 06:49 AM.
  
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09-27-2019, 07:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ62 View Post
So did the APA team that got disqualified after winning a spot in the finals for $25K in Las Vegas sandbag or did the just get cheated by the APA?
How would I know? I'd rather have a barbed wire enema than play APA. APA sucks.
  
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BryanB
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09-27-2019, 08:45 AM

For as long as it takes to raise or lower a Fargo rating, a person would spend a lot of time and money in smaller tournaments hoping to make a score in a bigger tournament


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09-27-2019, 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanB View Post
For as long as it takes to raise or lower a Fargo rating, a person would spend a lot of time and money in smaller tournaments hoping to make a score in a bigger tournament
Would be a pretty neat little concept, though.....


Go to the smaller tourney, go two and out on the lemon.

Wait around practicing(not FargoRated of course) until the tourney is over, stick the guy who won for all the cash. And all his buddies who saw you go two and out.

Wash, rinse, repeat on all the little ones until the big one comes, and be at a huge advantage against anyone playing fair.

Sounds good on paper........ haha
  
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09-27-2019, 09:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason View Post
9 ft are a lot easier to run out on. There is less congestion. The shots are longer, but rarely the creative breakouts needed. As long as you shoot straight, not so hard.
Are you high?? Gotta be the dumbest thing i've ever heard on here and that's saying something. FIRST and ONLY time in 40yrs of playing i've heard ANYONE say that 9ft. tables are easier to run out on. Are you really serious or just failing badly at sarcasm?
  
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09-27-2019, 09:17 AM

I see everyone is now seeing what some of us in the esports world have been annoyed at for years now. When it comes to handicap systems, keep it in the background. Once players see those numbers next to their names, it's all downhill from there.
  
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