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Bob Jewett
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06-18-2019, 01:14 PM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
Then this thread belongs in the NPR forums, because none of these theories about the relativity of flatness pertain to leveling pool tables, because none of them can be of practical use on today's pool table leveling.
But think of tomorrow! I can imagine an automated system that could level a table to a few thousandths in five minutes. Even more interesting would be a system that could map out the topography of a table. The laser-based system I mentioned above is used to do just that but with far more accuracy than needed, of course. What if you could give a customer a contour map of their table in less than 10 minutes to show how badly the previous mechanic had done? Then you could show them what it takes to make it right.


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06-18-2019, 01:22 PM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
Then this thread belongs in the NPR forums, because none of these theories about the relativity of flatness pertain to leveling pool tables, because none of them can be of practical use on todays pool table leveling.
Threads meander

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06-18-2019, 03:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Even more interesting would be a system that could map out the topography of a table.

What if you could give a customer a contour map of their table in less than 10 minutes to show how badly the previous mechanic had done?
Interestingly enough, the bar I hang around had a regular who is a surveyor and had a very high laser surveying tool in his truck.

We got the crazy idea to map out the topology of the bar's Alltech 8x4 table down to roughly the in.sq. grid level.

3 hours and many beers later we had about 1/4 of the table done when someone mentioned the topology map would only be valuable until some 300 lb. dude stretched across the table for the long shot, and stressed the frame and slate joints.

10 minutes would make it worthwhile.....12 hours not so much.
  
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06-18-2019, 03:34 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
So.... You don't think every Valley table installation should be required to use a $40,000 flatness system and the slate must be level to 20 microinches? Personally, I think that would be a good idea.

On a slate-related topic -- rather than hatred of Valley tables -- some carom tables grind the top corners of the slates so sharp that no fill material is used. The corners are sharp enough that you can cut yourself on them.
Bob, if you knew anything about the Valley tables, then you'd know the slate just lays to the frame of the table...if the cabinet is swayback, then the slate lays swayback....its not the slate, it's the cabinet, and there's no way the slate can be shimmed up to level end to end....because then you can't bolt the rails on, they follow the flatness of the slate while the cabinet sinks in the middle!!
  
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06-18-2019, 03:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
But think of tomorrow! I can imagine an automated system that could level a table to a few thousandths in five minutes. Even more interesting would be a system that could map out the topography of a table. The laser-based system I mentioned above is used to do just that but with far more accuracy than needed, of course. What if you could give a customer a contour map of their table in less than 10 minutes to show how badly the previous mechanic had done? Then you could show them what it takes to make it right.
And there's the million dollar question, what would it take to make it right?? Do you happen to have a portable grinding system in your other pocket??
  
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06-18-2019, 03:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
But think of tomorrow! I can imagine an automated system that could level a table to a few thousandths in five minutes. Even more interesting would be a system that could map out the topography of a table. The laser-based system I mentioned above is used to do just that but with far more accuracy than needed, of course. What if you could give a customer a contour map of their table in less than 10 minutes to show how badly the previous mechanic had done? Then you could show them what it takes to make it right.
I once worked on a GC3 that the previous mechanic determined that the nose of the cushions were.to low which is why the balls were hopping off the rails, so his FIX.......was to use a belt sander to grind down the edge of the slate at an angle in order to raise the nose height when the rails were bolted back on....I walked away!!!
  
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True Level! Biotches!!
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True Level! Biotches!! - 06-18-2019, 03:48 PM

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Just bumping this incase you don't know what TRUE LEVEL is!!


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grid - 06-18-2019, 04:08 PM

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Originally Posted by kevoka View Post
Interestingly enough, the bar I hang around had a regular who is a surveyor and had a very high laser surveying tool in his truck.

We got the crazy idea to map out the topology of the bar's Alltech 8x4 table down to roughly the in.sq. grid level.

3 hours and many beers later we had about 1/4 of the table done when someone mentioned the topology map would only be valuable until some 300 lb. dude stretched across the table for the long shot, and stressed the frame and slate joints.

10 minutes would make it worthwhile.....12 hours not so much.


You could use a six inch grid and still be more accurate than anything done with a level. Also, those readings would be likely to give indications of any problem between them.

The registered surveyor I used in 1995 happened to be a government surveyor as his day job. Their equipment was accurate to 3/8" to the mile back then and I think it is far better now. I think the last commercial tool I saw used eight satellites, I don't know how old it was.

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06-18-2019, 06:43 PM

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Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
You could use a six inch grid and still be more accurate than anything done with a level. Also, those readings would be likely to give indications of any problem between them.

The registered surveyor I used in 1995 happened to be a government surveyor as his day job. Their equipment was accurate to 3/8" to the mile back then and I think it is far better now. I think the last commercial tool I saw used eight satellites, I don't know how old it was.

Hu
Anytime you want to put up satellites against my starrett to level a pool table, just let me know...but the pool table has to remain IN the bar....LOL
  
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not a problem - 06-18-2019, 07:18 PM

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Originally Posted by realkingcobra View Post
Anytime you want to put up satellites against my starrett to level a pool table, just let me know...but the pool table has to remain IN the bar....LOL

It can stay in the bar just like that other table stayed indoors. As long as the instrument has a clean shot at the table it doesn't have to be on it or next to it.

You are way out of your depth when you start talking about what lasers or telemetry can't do.

Since less than one in a hundred Starrett levels are used to level pool tables I somehow suspect that isn't what they were designed for. I owned a few thousand dollars worth of Starrett measuring tools from the sixties and seventies before they were stolen. I own a zero to a half inch Starrett mike now that reads in ten-thousandths, cost over a hundred dollars. The Starrett wasn't as accurate as a fifteen dollar chinese piece of crap with an analog dial on it until I sent it back to Starrett. I told them about the chinese mike. To add insult to injury, the chinee mike came in a wooden case, the Starrett in a cardboard box. It cost me another ten dollars for the case! I once owned a Starrett dial indicator that was a thing of beauty. Dropped a hundred on one a few years back, it wasn't any better than the fifteen dollar harbor freight one. Felt like it had sand in the gears!

Starrett was a hell of a fine company fifty years ago. Today, not so much. Harbor Freight was handling a Starrett level. Need I say more?

Hu
  
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realkingcobra
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06-18-2019, 08:11 PM

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Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
It can stay in the bar just like that other table stayed indoors. As long as the instrument has a clean shot at the table it doesn't have to be on it or next to it.

You are way out of your depth when you start talking about what lasers or telemetry can't do.

Since less than one in a hundred Starrett levels are used to level pool tables I somehow suspect that isn't what they were designed for. I owned a few thousand dollars worth of Starrett measuring tools from the sixties and seventies before they were stolen. I own a zero to a half inch Starrett mike now that reads in ten-thousandths, cost over a hundred dollars. The Starrett wasn't as accurate as a fifteen dollar chinese piece of crap with an analog dial on it until I sent it back to Starrett. I told them about the chinese mike. To add insult to injury, the chinee mike came in a wooden case, the Starrett in a cardboard box. It cost me another ten dollars for the case! I once owned a Starrett dial indicator that was a thing of beauty. Dropped a hundred on one a few years back, it wasn't any better than the fifteen dollar harbor freight one. Felt like it had sand in the gears!

Starrett was a hell of a fine company fifty years ago. Today, not so much. Harbor Freight was handling a Starrett level. Need I say more?

Hu
Tell me something Hu, how unlevel does a table have to be, before a ball will start to roll off? What's the give or take, you know, the +/-?
  
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06-18-2019, 08:15 PM

This is the point none of you seem to understand, a ball roll off on Simonis 760, may not roll off on 860, and certainly wouldn't roll off on Championship Titan cloth, so a table needs to be leveled to within WHAT standard so that no ball will roll off???
  
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06-19-2019, 10:06 AM

How pregnant does a woman need to be described as pregnant?

She either is or isn't. There really is no in between or wiggle room.

A pool table either is level or not. It's only a question of how much
a table is or is not level. There's no in between and table owners
tend to accept how their table(s) turn out but make no mistakes. A
pool table is either level or isn't & most owners just wind up settling.


"My Pool Cues"

*Bob Owen Custom- Level 8 (s/d 4-24-16) - Flat Ivory Joint
*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 6 (s/d 5-4-16) - Flat Ivory Joint

*J. Rauenzahn Custom - Level 8 (s/d 2-23-15) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Ed Prewitt Custom '05 - Level 8 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Bob Owen Custom - Level 8 (s/d 5-4-14) - Flat Ivory Joint
*Tim Scruggs Custom (9-6-95) Level 7 - Flat Ivory Joint
*Runde Schon '85 Custom "R" Series (1 of 1)
*Palmer (Original) - '72 (All Cocobolo Wood)
  
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06-19-2019, 10:30 AM

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Originally Posted by Bavafongoul View Post
How pregnant does a woman need to be described as pregnant?

She either is or isn't. There really is no in between or wiggle room.

A pool table either is level or not. It's only a question of how much
a table is or is not level. There's no in between and table owners
tend to accept how their table(s) turn out but make no mistakes. A
pool table is either level or isn't & most owners just wind up settling.
I have no idea what you are suggesting. No table is perfect, the question is how much imperfection is noticable, easily measurable, significant or acceptable.

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06-19-2019, 10:36 AM

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Originally Posted by logical View Post
I have no idea what you are suggesting. No table is perfect, the question is how much imperfection is noticable, easily measurable, significant or acceptable.

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That would be correct, what is the allowable tolerances. If a ball won't start rolling off at the ends of the slate if it reads .0020ths high, is .0015ths acceptable. If a ball won't roll away from the side rails lengthwise unless the slate reads .0015ths high towards the side rails, is .0010ths accessible?????
  
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