Touching the ONE-BALL in a 9-Ball Rack Creates an ADVANTAGE - Is This "Cheating" ?

Yoda4962

Yoda4962

North Texas
Silver Member
9 ball is becoming too much about the break.

Example:

This year's texas open : 1 or 2 players mastered the slow break, and they were almost impossible to beat. Their matches were very lopsided, even against top players.

The game needs to be modified so that the break becomes a smaller percentage of the outcome. I'm not saying that I know how to accomplish this, but just saying this is my opinion.

Also, at that tournament, i tried to copy what i was seeing on the break, and then proceeded to run a 7 pack. I didn't play well enough to win the whole thing, but my eyes were opened about the magic rack and it's limitations.

I like the idea of forced push after every break.
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
. I want to play the real game, not participate in a "Rack(ing)Running Contest".

Yoda4962 said:
Example:

This year's texas open : 1 or 2 players mastered the slow break, and they were almost impossible to beat. Their matches were very lopsided, even against top players.

The game needs to be modified so that the break becomes a smaller percentage of the outcome. I'm not saying that I know how to accomplish this, but just saying this is my opinion.

Also, at that tournament, i tried to copy what i was seeing on the break, and then proceeded to run a 7 pack. I didn't play well enough to win the whole thing, but my eyes were opened about the magic rack and it's limitations.

I like the idea of forced push after every break.
Click to expand...

I was there, but didn't play. After going down and watching I decided then and there that I would never play in another tournament using a racking template. Making a dead ball every time in every match was the last straw for me. I want to play the real game, not participate in a "Rack(ing)Running Contest". ;)
 
Yoda4962

Yoda4962

North Texas
Silver Member
A little more info….

At the Texas open, I tried to talk to the tournament director about this issue, but it was received harshly. I was in favor of the magic rack, but not the slow break that everyone was using. He stated that he didn't care what the players liked or didn't like….

He " only wanted the matches to be completed as quickly as possible ". Maybe he has a point, but when one works on their game for a lifetime,,… a player might see it differently.


See you at the Derby.
 
JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Talk about timing......

CJ Wiley said:
It's been okay, and even encouraged to be a "racking mechanic" - why on earth would you ever stream a match without a referee? We used to do it consistently in the 90s.

Click Here For an Example

There's many people that would jump at the opportunity to rack the games for champion players. I even offered to do it myself in Vegas, and it was refused.

go figure.......fyi - the offer still stands at any tournament I attend, and I'll rack them as tight as possible. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

That is a cool link with great timing.

Vivian Villareal is flying into New Orleans and will be at our local pool room, Lacy's Cue, in Chalmette, Louisiana for a few days.

JoeyA
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The best way to do this is create as much luck as possible, and as little strategy.

Yoda4962 said:
At the Texas open, I tried to talk to the tournament director about this issue, but it was received harshly. I was in favor of the magic rack, but not the slow break that everyone was using. He stated that he didn't care what the players liked or didn't like….

He " only wanted the matches to be completed as quickly as possible ". Maybe he has a point, but when one works on their game for a lifetime,,… a player might see it differently.


See you at the Derby.
Click to expand...

Yes, the rules and equipment (jump cues, magic racks, fast cloth) in pool these days evolved from the desire to speed up play and fill up the tournaments. The best way to do this is create as much luck as possible, and as little strategy. This hasn't turned out so well for the Pros, the leagues are doing fine.
 
Floyd_M

Floyd_M

"Have Cue, Will Travel"
Silver Member
I skim-read this thread so if I missed something, please bear this in mind.

This thread seems to hover around the issue of how to rack a rack for your advantage or the opponents disadvantage. "What if" the following variable was added to a rack.

I play in local 8 ball bar leagues but the following is for any game where a rack is used.

When racking, does the head ball absolutely need to be be perfectly placed on the spot or could the head ball be place somewhere over the spot?

This would place the rack somewhere a little off center to the table but not askew to the tables square.
Could/would this open a new variable as how the rack opens up on the break or just a means for the breaker to start issues?

I'm guessing this will get more Nays than Yays.
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Floyd_M said:
I skim-read this thread so if I missed something, please bear this in mind.

This thread seems to hover around the issue of how to rack a rack for your advantage or the opponents disadvantage. "What if" the following variable was added to a rack.

I play in local 8 ball bar leagues but the following is for any game where a rack is used.

When racking, does the head ball absolutely need to be be perfectly placed on the spot or could the head ball be place somewhere over the spot?

This would place the rack somewhere a little off center to the table but not askew to the tables square.
Could/would this open a new variable as how the rack opens up on the break or just a means for the breaker to start issues?

I'm guessing this will get more Nays than Yays.
Click to expand...

When I rack, I move up and down the table, but never off center. The back of the rack aligns with the middle diamond on the short rail, so the rack would be angled if the head ball was to either side of the center spot.

Turning the rack has always been a no-no and easy to spot. So, I'd say not side movement and yes, to front and back positioning.

Best,
Mike

My dad grew up in Waukegan.
 
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CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
15 cops raided the place because of a poker/dice game in the back

Mikjary said:
When I rack, I move up and down the table, but never off center. The back of the rack aligns with the middle diamond on the short rail, so the rack would be angled if the head ball was to either side of the center spot.

Turning the rack has always been a no-no and easy to spot. So, I'd say not side movement and yes, to front and back positioning.

Best,
Mike

My dad grew up in Waukegan.
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Is that Waukegan Illiniois?

I went there to play "Boston Joey" at the Homestead Bar back in the early 80s. Someday I'll tell you that story, it could very well be featured in a movie.

Just a portion of the story included about 15 cops raiding the place because of a poker/dice game in the back.....the rest I'll save for a personal conversation. ;)
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CJ Wiley said:
Is that Waukegan Illiniois?

I went there to play "Boston Joey" at the Homestead Bar back in the early 80s. Someday I'll tell you that story, it could very well be featured in a movie.

Just a portion of the story included about 15 cops raiding the place because of a poker/dice game in the back.....the rest I'll save for a personal conversation. ;)
Click to expand...

The Homestead...sounds familiar. I may have been through there a few times. Can't remember exactly when.

Seems like there was another bar out that way in the 80's that had some action, too. Maybe it'll come to me...

Best,
Mike
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
We better not catch you in another bar in Lake Co.- (they must have been kidding)

Mikjary said:
The Homestead...sounds familiar. I may have been through there a few times. Can't remember exactly when.

Seems like there was another bar out that way in the 80's that had some action, too. Maybe it'll come to me...

Best,
Mike
Click to expand...

I was underage when they raided the bar, there must have been 20 officers. They found my assortment of fake ID's and of course confiscated all of them.

I'll not forget them telling me they better not catch me in another bar in Lake Co. until I was 21. Of course I left that bar and ran across the street to another one and ordered a beer to calm mystelf down, pool hustling around there was pretty stressful. ;)
 
Floyd_M

Floyd_M

"Have Cue, Will Travel"
Silver Member
CJ Wiley said:
I was underage when they raided the bar, there must have been 20 officers. They found my assortment of fake ID's and of course confiscated all of them.
;)
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Every now and then Charley L. used to mention that incident, always a smile comes to him. Seems like one of his highlights of his heyday's. He did talk of "Boston Joey" quite a bit and how he always gave him a run on the table. (tho no one else is old enough to remember it)
Always an enjoyable story or two from him. He said back then the area was a lot rougher than today, as of 4 years ago when he played on out team.

If you remember Charley, he's not doing good lately. No one has much info since he's staying home 100% of the time.
Floyd
 
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CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Steve Gumphrey, and Bushwhacker (Gary Nolan) also won some serious money

Floyd_M said:
Every now and then Charley L. used to mention that incident, always a smile comes to him. Seems like one of his highlights of his heyday's. He did talk of "Boston Joey" quite a bit and how he always gave him a run on the table. (tho no one else is old enough to remember it)
Always an enjoyable story or two from him. He said back then the area was a lot rougher than today, as of 4 years ago when he played on out team.

If you remember Charley, he's not doing good lately. No one has much info since he's staying home 100% of the time.
Floyd
Click to expand...

I'm not sure who "Charley L." is, was he a regular at the Homestead Bar?

Boston Joey was a great player, he played as well as Doug Smith at the time. I believe Dave Yeager and Omaha John went over a few times to match up with him in Waukegan. Steve Gumphrey, and Bushwhacker (Gary Nolan) also won some serious money around the area. There was another good player named Kevin Stanell in Milwaukee. (spelling of these names may be off slightly)
 
Floyd_M

Floyd_M

"Have Cue, Will Travel"
Silver Member
CJ Wiley said:
I'm not sure who "Charley L." is, was he a regular at the Homestead Bar?
Click to expand...

I asked the guys tonight when Charley Long owned the bar, it was 85-86. But he was a regular there for years. Either way, 85-86 be after your time.... oops.
But the guys all were aghast I didn't know who Boston Joey was. I'm just not that deep into local pool hustlers, I'm not that kind of player. I enjoy pool for what it is, not the $$$ behind scenes thing.

If you're ever skoot'n through here in the near future, it be a fine chat. Maybe a game or two but that's NOT the priority.
Pool in America can use a new resurgence. Our local leagues in the very early 1990's were the first to change APA and redirect BCA. I'm really glad I was part of it for what we did it made it better for everyone, not just us.

OH.... I've only been in Wkgn for 13 years now so I don't know the local past here. Grew up on the far-far SW side of Chi-Town.
 
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CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Allie Oop was hanging around as well.

Floyd_M said:
I asked the guys tonight when Charley Long owned the bar, it was 85-86. But he was a regular there for years. Either way, 85-86 be after your time.... oops.
But the guys all were aghast I didn't know who Boston Joey was. I'm just not that deep into local pool hustlers, I'm not that kind of player. I enjoy pool for what it is, not the $$$ behind scenes thing.

If you're ever skoot'n through here in the near future, it be a fine chat. Maybe a game or two but that's NOT the priority.
Pool in America can use a new resurgence. Our local leagues in the very early 1990's were the first to change APA and redirect BCA. I'm really glad I was part of it for what we did it made it better for everyone, not just us.

OH.... I've only been in Wkgn for 13 years now so I don't know the local past here. Grew up on the far-far SW side of Chi-Town.
Click to expand...

I was there playing at the Homestead Bar in 1984/85 (86 I won the World Series of Pool) - I do remember the name "Charlie Long". Allie Oop was hanging around as well.
 
M

Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CJ Wiley said:
I was there playing at the Homestead Bar in 1984/85 (86 I won the World Series of Pool) - I do remember the name "Charlie Long". Allie Oop was hanging around as well.
Click to expand...

I missed you by a few years. I moved out to Denver to do battle with Danny and Melvin at Colfax Billiards.

Al O'Rear (Allie Oop) used to play in a pool league in Cicero. That's where I first met him. He was a ball or so under Rod, but had a similar style with the big ball. Rod asked you to play and didn't sneak up on anybody. Al was a little less obvious and moved a lot more till the bet got higher.

If you put a couple of racks on Al, you saw a totally different player than the guy that started the set. He played good when he wasn't jerking around and got serious.

Best,
Mike
 
dougster26

dougster26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This is a very interesting thread, Just watched a match where the commentator said beware of anyone who is turning the one ball.

Why I am posting is to ask why do we have to accept the way the game is supposedly played today? No one enjoys all of the maneuvering of the rack that goes on or the reracks taking forever and ever. So if the game has gotten out of hand, then change the game. Let's say you have to rack your own and then break. Once you have broken, no matter whether you have made a ball or not, your opponent shoots next. No soft breaks allowed.

If that doesn't work then how about a different type of rack where the balls aren't lined up they are just randomly put inside.

Another method would be to make up a ball dispenser that would send the balls to all parts of the table without having to break them.

I know this all sounds weird, but remember, the purpose is to find something that takes the manipulation and boredom out of racking. They say refs cannot be use due to cost. There seem to be spectators at all tournaments. Randomly pick a different person to come up and rack every time and no challenge whatsoever. I would think that any that bad racks would even out between the players.

We have seen a number of changes because players have learned how to make a ball on the break every time. Alternate break has cured stringing racks together.

Some tournaments make you break from the box. Many changes have been made to try and make the game fair and more interesting. I think we need to do some work on how the balls are racked by changing the configuration, methods, or protocol.

Anybody agree, disagree, or have anything to add?
 
JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Your idea of picking random people from the audience to rack the balls is practical in one way but if the rackers are picked that way, we should get them all shirts that read on the front and back, WHIPPING BOY. Because many of the pool players will scold them, curse them and otherwise ridicule them for their poor break results. I don't know many people who will take that kind of insulting very long.

JoeyA


dougster26 said:
This is a very interesting thread, Just watched a match where the commentator said beware of anyone who is turning the one ball.

Why I am posting is to ask why do we have to accept the way the game is supposedly played today? No one enjoys all of the maneuvering of the rack that goes on or the reracks taking forever and ever. So if the game has gotten out of hand, then change the game. Let's say you have to rack your own and then break. Once you have broken, no matter whether you have made a ball or not, your opponent shoots next. No soft breaks allowed.

If that doesn't work then how about a different type of rack where the balls aren't lined up they are just randomly put inside.

Another method would be to make up a ball dispenser that would send the balls to all parts of the table without having to break them.

I know this all sounds weird, but remember, the purpose is to find something that takes the manipulation and boredom out of racking. They say refs cannot be use due to cost. There seem to be spectators at all tournaments. Randomly pick a different person to come up and rack every time and no challenge whatsoever. I would think that any that bad racks would even out between the players.

We have seen a number of changes because players have learned how to make a ball on the break every time. Alternate break has cured stringing racks together.

Some tournaments make you break from the box. Many changes have been made to try and make the game fair and more interesting. I think we need to do some work on how the balls are racked by changing the configuration, methods, or protocol.

Anybody agree, disagree, or have anything to add?
Click to expand...
 
dougster26

dougster26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JoeyA said:
Your idea of picking random people from the audience to rack the balls is practical in one way but if the rackers are picked that way, we should get them all shirts that read on the front and back, WHIPPING BOY. Because many of the pool players will scold them, curse them and otherwise ridicule them for their poor break results. I don't know many people who will take that kind of insulting very long.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

I agree with what you are saying, but something has to be done. The tournament directors have to step in and say this is the way it is. If you complain then maybe you lose a game. All of this stuff is off the wall, but it's either change something or continue watching the rack mechanics do their thing along with the *****ing and complaining amongst the players. When watching a match, I don't like the scrutiny of the rack that goes on with some of them. Case in point. Player A is examining the rack. After, what seems like a couple of minutes, he finds a small gap. Player B has to rerack and has a hard time getting the balls tight. Then when player B is done it has to be reinspected.

I want to watch the players play pool, I don't want to watch a racking contest.
 
CJ Wiley

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I told the player in a low tone that this was not a good idea

JoeyA said:
Your idea of picking random people from the audience to rack the balls is practical in one way but if the rackers are picked that way, we should get them all shirts that read on the front and back, WHIPPING BOY. Because many of the pool players will scold them, curse them and otherwise ridicule them for their poor break results. I don't know many people who will take that kind of insulting very long.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

We had referees racking most of the televised matches and it worked out fine. There just needs to be a serous rule in place that no player can look at the rack or comment on it in any way, shape or form.

Rules are important, and need to be in-forced. Allowing this racking thing to be such an issue is childish. I played thousands of tournament and gambling matches and NO PLAYER ever tried to touch the one ball......until I played in the US OPEN 10-Ball, and it was attempted.....and not for long.

I told the player in a low tone that this was not a good idea (I used slightly different wording), and he didn't try it again......he knew that I knew what was up and he was in for a fight if he continued.
 
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