I'd only be interested in determining where the cb goes after contact. I know where my contact point on the ob is for all different angles and speeds and spins. So is there an easy method to determine that? Seems like a lot to memorize
Angle Detective by CueAndMe
- Thread starter CueAndMe
- Start date
Just my take but i don't see how after reading all of that and(hopefully) digesting it how one could play with any feel/flow with all that running thru your head. That ultra-detailed method of instruction works FOR SOME. I for one would not make a ball from the info overload. That much detail can hurt as much as help. Some will love it i'm sure.I'm pretty sure thats why Sir Charles has that hitchy
stroke. Iirc he went to too many lessons to work
on his swing. Was shooting in the high 80's,
now his swing looks like he has actual paralysis
Lot of good info on that website for those looking
to learn some.
I agree you absolutely can not play with any feel/flow
with all that stuff going through your head.
Novice players can use that stuff as a reference and
it will help them understand some things they had
no concept of before. Such as why crossing the object
ball on a bank goes long or why contact induced throw
makes a shot go wide and how to compensate.
You still need to put some insane hours on the table
to teach your brain what to do automatically.
I just like to nerd out on that stuff. I remember when
I first found Dr. Daves website I printed off a 3 ring
binder worth of info, read literally every page on that
website. I have SERIOUS problems, I know.
I totally understand. The problem I have is that there is a lot of information packed into the whole thing, but I start with geometry, which I know can be off-putting for many. Even beyond the Theory section, the methods themselves in the Application section have to be explained by pointing back to the geometry, so that might also be off-putting for many.
One thing I can tell you is that although there's a lot to information to get through, there is almost certainly something in there that you can use. But I can understand why you wouldn't want to trudge through all that other stuff.
This is why I'm going to be creating an abridged version that is much more accessible to those who aren't willing to give it so much time and just want a few nuggets to try.
Okay, the big problem with your aiming system is....
I figured I'd put that there firstI like what I see so far! (That's not a problem). Nice job!
Freddie <~~~ likes the scissors instruction
Thanks, Freddie! I hope you like the rest!
Better too much than not enough
I fall into this camp, Bryan. I'd rather have all of the information and then decide for myself what to keep and what to either throw away or recycle somehow.
I actually agree. I just don't see Angle Detective as something that would be likely to paralyze. In fact I encourage it as a path to find the feel. I now have a much better feel than I did before it. I think what happens is that there's a pressure that gets lifted when you can immediately rule out a ton of shot angles and aims as a possibility. Then rather than feeling your way between a range of possible shots from 0° to 90°, you have narrowed the range to within 5° or less, and the feel then takes over from there with much more confidence. And that confidence becomes really high when the object ball is within a few feet from the pocket where you actually have a lot more room for error.
I'm pretty sure thats why Sir Charles has that hitchy
stroke. Iirc he went to too many lessons to work
on his swing. Was shooting in the high 80's,
now his swing looks like he has actual paralysis
Lot of good info on that website for those looking
to learn some.
I'm also a golfer and have been overly analytical as well. I studied and tried to copy Ben Hogan's swing for years. I'd say that my swing is better for having done so, but even if intense analysis can work, obsession is certainly not a healthy thing.
I agree that it's a lot to memorize. I mention in there somewhere not to try to memorize it all but to take a method or a few and try them out to see if they fit for you. If they don't, come back for more. As long as I can stay solvent, I'll have the site up as a repository for this information.
I strongly believe in the feel/flow thing as well. Thanks. You just reminded me of something I wanted to add to the Training section. I do want to encourage people not to think too much. They have to think while learning it, but they don't have to think much when applying it. And during practice and of course play, there should be that flow and looseness. No stiffness.
I think of Ronnie O'Sullivan when I think of the perfect flow. There should be that same smoothness of approach. Always moving, never stiff. There needs to be precision in the preshot routine and in bending into the shot, but there should be flow as well.
I have the same serious problems! I love that stuff. Dr.Dave is always great. His website, his videos, his respect for the game. If you get a little further into the system, you'll see that I embedded a couple of Dr. Dave's videos.
Anyway, I just want everyone to know that I'll be working on the abridged version this week if you are still willing to give the system a chance. And videos that I intend to add to my YouTube channel will make everything much more digestible. I'm hoping to upload at least 1 video per month. I'm not good at the video editing thing, but I'll try to get better. If it starts to come more naturally, I'll do more.
Thanks for at least giving it a look!
Last edited:
It looks like my Aiming system book I'm working on. Very nice.
Jeff, I love how you address all comments about your material in a very professional, reasonable manner. You get a big humbs up on character my friend.
I'm gonna read more through the book this weekend, because I'm sure there are several nuggets in there I can use in one way or another.
I'm gonna read more through the book this weekend, because I'm sure there are several nuggets in there I can use in one way or another.
Thank you, DecentShot. Best of luck with your book!
That means a lot, Brian. Thank you. I've had tunnel vision for that past 3 years and no one to bounce things off of. It feels good to finally have it out there and to get new perspectives. I hope you enjoy what you read this weekend!
Wow! That looks like it was a massive amount of work.
Many will think it is too “complex,” but I’m sure some people will enjoy and relate to it.
When I get a chance, I’ll add a brief description and link to you website on the aiming systems resource page.
Good job,
Dave
It is too complex, from a practical standpoint.
Still a good and worthwhile read though.
Thank you so much, Dave! I appreciate that. I agree that the full version is complex, but I'll do my best to make the abridged version easier to digest. I also plan to do videos, so that should help too.
I think if I showed things such as how the Half Skip h-pattern is 3 quick-drawn lines (a lightning bolt shape) that could tell people whether the shot they're facing was just under, just over, or exactly a half ball shot, I think they'd realize the practical uses for it.
But I have to spend some time this coming week figuring out what information to leave out for the abridged version.
I appreciate the feedback. And if there are specific topics that you think I could have worded better, please let me know. Thanks, BeiberLvr!
My issue is the the use of whole degrees only. The measurement for angles is in degrees.minutes.seconds.
So...24 degrees is actually 24 degrees.00 minutes.00 seconds.
In real life, you have no idea nor can you accurately measure a shot angle. In real life, a shot angle of 28 degrees.30 minutes.30 seconds is possible.
Meaning not all shot angles encountered in real world pool playing will always be whole degrees.
The actual degree of the shot cut angle does not matter one bit. What does matter is understanding the affect of a increasing shot cut angle has on the transfer of energy from the CB to OB. The greater the angle, the less transfer of energy and that is the only thing needed to know about cut shot angle.
So...24 degrees is actually 24 degrees.00 minutes.00 seconds.
In real life, you have no idea nor can you accurately measure a shot angle. In real life, a shot angle of 28 degrees.30 minutes.30 seconds is possible.
Meaning not all shot angles encountered in real world pool playing will always be whole degrees.
The actual degree of the shot cut angle does not matter one bit. What does matter is understanding the affect of a increasing shot cut angle has on the transfer of energy from the CB to OB. The greater the angle, the less transfer of energy and that is the only thing needed to know about cut shot angle.
FYI, the page I added contains the following:
Angle Detective is an aiming system developed by Jeff Swain based on visualizing rectangles of different proportions to estimate cut angles to help determine the required ball-hit fractions for different shots. For more info, see: CueAndMe.
Please let me know if this description is fair or not. If not, please provide something better that is clear, concise, and meaningful.
BTW, I think it would be very useful to create a video that shows how the basics of the system can be applied easily and effectively at the table to aim and pocket a wide range of cut shots. Please let me know if you post such a video and I'll add an embed to the resource page.
Regards,
Dave
Last edited:
That's very generous of you, Dave. Thanks so much!
And yes, I'll definitely work on a video like that sometime soon and let you know. Thanks again!
Here's a simpler version (of part of it) that I posted in the aiming forum last year:
Easy Fractions
pj
chgo
Hey, Duckie. I do go a little bit into the transfer of energy from CB to OB at the end of the Application section. And I agree that it's probably impossible to see angles way down to minutes and seconds, but fortunately most of us don't have to play into Kaisa pockets. So there's at least some room for error.
Have you seen those Kaisa pockets? If not, check out this thread:
https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=499799&page=2
Last edited:
Interesting, Patrick. I promise I didn't see that! I haven't been back to the aiming forum in a while.
But I recall from many years ago that there is a phenomenon where when one completely separate group from a species discovers something, a group of the same species on the other side of the world discovers it some time soon thereafter. You and I just might be of the same species.:wink: I wonder what the official binomial nomenclature would be for our species.
Just to clarify, that is a small portion of what is in Angle Detective, but yes, it's part of it.
I will commend you on the great deal of work you put in, truly impressive.
I'm in the same camp as garczar and BeiberLvr, it's too much. I've read detailed instruction for golf like this and it messed my game up for a month. I can remember a friend noticed my game was off and how my swing was screwed up. He said 'Scott, just get up there and take an athletic swing at the golf ball', it worked. I forgot about all that I read and just played the game, I did much better and it was much more enjoyable.
Knowing all the angles is great. But even if I could draw the aim line on the table, those without experience will still miss.
Again, amazing amount of work you did. I may read it slowly and limit my intake. Very generous of you to put all of that out too.
I'm in the same camp as garczar and BeiberLvr, it's too much. I've read detailed instruction for golf like this and it messed my game up for a month. I can remember a friend noticed my game was off and how my swing was screwed up. He said 'Scott, just get up there and take an athletic swing at the golf ball', it worked. I forgot about all that I read and just played the game, I did much better and it was much more enjoyable.
Knowing all the angles is great. But even if I could draw the aim line on the table, those without experience will still miss.
Again, amazing amount of work you did. I may read it slowly and limit my intake. Very generous of you to put all of that out too.
Pat,
Excellent contribution, as always. FYI, I added your info to the estimating cut angles and fractional-ball aiming resource pages.
Regards,
Dave
Last edited:
Totally cool if you had - I might get credit for inspiring you to build on it!
pj
chgo