That’s not the same as their speeds immediately after collision?
pj
chgo
The closer to dead-center that the cue ball strikes the object ball, the more of its
- Thread starter evergruven
- Start date
pj
chgo
What are the odds?
What are the odds? Thousands of matches all support your beliefs and when I go to youtube and use "nine ball" as a search field the very first match that comes up refutes your statements. First three racks are gentle tap ins low on the table, the fourth rack is pretty much exactly the shot we are supposed to see low outside and a hard hit on. The rest of the match is much the same although I may have missed a money ball or two skimming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQ74MTfWVI
I don't know of anyone playing angles and near centerline the vast majority of the time now that didn't go through the spin to win stage. It is kind of a natural progression. When the angle is right it would be silly to add a lot of side.
Hu
What are the odds? Thousands of matches all support your beliefs and when I go to youtube and use "nine ball" as a search field the very first match that comes up refutes your statements. First three racks are gentle tap ins low on the table, the fourth rack is pretty much exactly the shot we are supposed to see low outside and a hard hit on. The rest of the match is much the same although I may have missed a money ball or two skimming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rQ74MTfWVI
I don't know of anyone playing angles and near centerline the vast majority of the time now that didn't go through the spin to win stage. It is kind of a natural progression. When the angle is right it would be silly to add a lot of side.
Hu
Now you know. It’s not to be cool or stylish. I also find it hard to believe that players who have watched any amount of 9-ball are oblivious that pros and any good player shoot the 9-ball like this quite regularly.hey lux, I never heard that before, that pros hit the money ball with speed and english to avoid skids. it's an interesting idea- is there a way to confirm this?
pros definitely go several rails out on the money ball when it doesn't look like they have to- I don't know anything, but always just kind of thought that on the last ball they could hit it kind of stylishly
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Speed to hold their stroke
Outside to mitigate skid
With speed and outside, the cue ball will come short of the head corner pocket, so no scratch there. And certainly no scratch in the side pocket, which happens to players who like to “safely” float this shot with center follow.
Freddie <~~~ scratching my head at the directon of this thread
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If pros really do mostly hit the game ball with outside, I believe this is the main reason. Low outside is the most common hit because of the layout of the table itself - we're usually shooting toward one end (into a corner pocket) and moving the CB toward the other (for instance, to center table).
In other words, they prefer it because it's what they're used to - not because it's inherently more accurate. I believe it's inherently less accurate in the long run.
pj
chgo
If you aim using a pivot or BHE and your pivot is accurate, then your "aiming" point (ghost ball for example) will be the same for center and outside.
My point being, that its necessary to over cut shots when using center, to counteract CIT. So is it possible that the alternative, is compensating with outside English?
Of course it is - the question is which one is most reliable.
The OB contact points with and without side spin are in slightly different places, but they're equally small - so it takes an equal amount of precision to make the shot either way. Are you more precise at hitting the OB contact point with or without side spin?
Are you more consistent at applying the exact amount of outside spin needed for each different cut angle, or at hitting the CB in the center?
Pros are better at it than we are, but that's the wrong comparison. The question is which one would they do better with if they used both equally.
pj
chgo
I think you are correct and I try to be vertical on the cue ball. But a spinner (A Player) that I play with shows me how the stripe on a striped OB ball aligned with the hole will roll square to the hole hit with outside English on the CB. So he uses it all the time to get his square roll out. With a vertical hit on the CB, the stripe rolls sideways a bit on it's way to the hole. My teacher says that does not matter a bit, who cares how the OB rolls to the hole. Says to make the ball with a vertical hit on the CB unless you need it for shape. How about anyone else's opinion on this?
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If skids are a major reason that you miss -- and that is true for very few of us -- then close to the right amount of outside can make the chance of a skid zero. The amount doesn't have to be exactly correct for a "gearing" contact, but it does have to be in a small range of side spin for each angle of cut.
If you miss only twice in 200 shots on a typical day and one of those is from a skid, then you should be concerned. (Stick in other numbers if you think skids happen more or less often.)
For a lot of people who have not mastered side spin, trying to avoid skids is going to be horribly counterproductive as they miss the shots left and right due to too much throw or swerve or not enough throw or ....
https://youtu.be/tDkKpsl4lds
So I put together a little less than a minute compilation of the nine ball shots I watched today using outside English. It’s important to know when to use it and when not to when you’re shooting the ball down the rail it’s more likely to rattle so your gonna be more likely to roll it in softer.
Everything I’ve learned and read is that the most skid happens happens around a 30° angle.
That’s when they seem to use it the most the outside English that is.
I started obsessing about why they did that a long long time ago and I have watched carefully every nine ball shot closely The past decade there was actually a thread about this a decade ago. I do believe it could hurt someone’s game and that’s not ready for it but I definitely believe it could help a lot of people’s game that are right on the cusp of take it to the next level. Sorry if my spelling or grammar is off, I’m voice texting.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Put another way: Does using spin cause more misses than the skids it avoids?
I may have a skewed view - I play with table and balls that are cleaned daily, so I see a skid every few days at most - but I think you have to have a very low miss rate to make it a good tactic.
pj
chgo
There seems to be One advantage to using Center Ball the has not been discussed.
This is only my experience, but when cutting a ball down the rail Center Ball seems to impart a twisting effect on the Object Ball that make it spin Into the pocket.
Invaluable on really tight pockets.
Anyone else notice this?
Bill S.
This is only my experience, but when cutting a ball down the rail Center Ball seems to impart a twisting effect on the Object Ball that make it spin Into the pocket.
Invaluable on really tight pockets.
Anyone else notice this?
Bill S.
Yes, that was the subject of one of my articles in Billiards Digest a while ago. Getting a little rail-side spin on the object ball makes the pocket about 20% larger from some angles. I didn't believe it was significant until I measured it.
Mike Sigel recommended using outside when possible. I think when he was on the road he had to deal with dirty equipment. He also might not miss a ball he shot at for 20 racks. In his situation I think skid avoidance was more important than it is for the rest of us.
I think this is a point that might be get lost for all the players who started into this game after Simonis and other worsted wool became the norm, or for players who generally don't play in dirty bar conditions.
On the other hand, modern young pros seem to do the outside-english thing all the time. They may have just learned it from their mentors, or they see the skid thing more often than reported here. I know that once I started to play on Simonis, the skid vs no skid was way more obvious when it happened, and it seemed to happen more, but it was subtle skid. Sometimes you get that subtle skid and still make the ball but get goofy position. Playing on slower conditions, every shot had more CIT to start, so when skid happened, it was a disastrous hop ,not just a subtle thing.
So, subtle skid is a thing. That would be something to avoid and higher levels when position is so crucial.
Freddie <~~~ starting to forget
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How far away from the pocket is the limit before the spin wears off? Would there be any advantage if you were shooting from the third diamond?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
For the long twist bank at one pocket the answer is more than six diamonds.
My tests were done with about two diamonds of travel.
Side spin wears off the balls faster on nappy cloth.
Speed is an important factor in maintaining the spin on the object ball. You have to hit it pretty crisp.
Watch Eddy Taylor bank a ball and see how far down the rail he hits and still makes the ball. Sometimes two diamonds or more on an end rail bank.
Because I use side English as little as possible, I see it a lot.
On tight tables it makes rail shots much easier.
Bill S.
Watch Eddy Taylor bank a ball and see how far down the rail he hits and still makes the ball. Sometimes two diamonds or more on an end rail bank.
Because I use side English as little as possible, I see it a lot.
On tight tables it makes rail shots much easier.
Bill S.
always a risk with written communication
This video helped get us on the same page I believe. Most of those shots were hit what I consider softly, just enough speed to keep odd things from happening. The angle and distance to the rail meant rails would be contacted but in all but the last shot the cue ball took very close to it's natural path with a little draw, little side. The last shot I believe it was, was hit medium speed and used more than slight spin. Maybe the first, didn't get a good look at it. Through the middle all I saw was draw, not to say slight spin couldn't have been used. To clarify, when the edge of the tip is even with the center of the cue ball is what some including myself call a half tip of side. This is the most I consider slight spin. Some call this one tip of side based on the effect it has on the cue ball. The different measurement confuses things. A tip and a half of spin is as much as I call moderate. Getting past there starts risking a miscue and I consider it extreme and time to chalk. I chalk once or twice a game using master chalk or before having to go far from the center of the cue ball in any direction.
A couple things about the down the rail shots, transferred spin and the spin from the rail itself can make the object ball run down the rail if there is only one cushion involved. Playing many poorly maintained tables I have been done dirt by side pockets or rails not perfectly inline many times. When shooting down the rail running along the cushion we are shooting at one edge of the available pocket, all of the inner rail is on one side of the cue ball. By aiming to play off of that inner rail of the corner pocket, a third to half the way out on the inside rail, we take the cushions and side pocket out of play and the shot is much like any open table shot. A little trickier if the cue ball and object ball are frozen on the rail instead of just the object ball but with a little practice there are several ways to make the object ball come off the rail.
I have been robbed enough times by poorly covered rails or poorly aligned rails that I am not as big a fan of running down the cushion as I once was. The concept of available pocket is big too. easy to shoot at the center of what we see of the pocket itself without considering where the center of the available pocket including the inner rail is.
Hu
This video helped get us on the same page I believe. Most of those shots were hit what I consider softly, just enough speed to keep odd things from happening. The angle and distance to the rail meant rails would be contacted but in all but the last shot the cue ball took very close to it's natural path with a little draw, little side. The last shot I believe it was, was hit medium speed and used more than slight spin. Maybe the first, didn't get a good look at it. Through the middle all I saw was draw, not to say slight spin couldn't have been used. To clarify, when the edge of the tip is even with the center of the cue ball is what some including myself call a half tip of side. This is the most I consider slight spin. Some call this one tip of side based on the effect it has on the cue ball. The different measurement confuses things. A tip and a half of spin is as much as I call moderate. Getting past there starts risking a miscue and I consider it extreme and time to chalk. I chalk once or twice a game using master chalk or before having to go far from the center of the cue ball in any direction.
A couple things about the down the rail shots, transferred spin and the spin from the rail itself can make the object ball run down the rail if there is only one cushion involved. Playing many poorly maintained tables I have been done dirt by side pockets or rails not perfectly inline many times. When shooting down the rail running along the cushion we are shooting at one edge of the available pocket, all of the inner rail is on one side of the cue ball. By aiming to play off of that inner rail of the corner pocket, a third to half the way out on the inside rail, we take the cushions and side pocket out of play and the shot is much like any open table shot. A little trickier if the cue ball and object ball are frozen on the rail instead of just the object ball but with a little practice there are several ways to make the object ball come off the rail.
I have been robbed enough times by poorly covered rails or poorly aligned rails that I am not as big a fan of running down the cushion as I once was. The concept of available pocket is big too. easy to shoot at the center of what we see of the pocket itself without considering where the center of the available pocket including the inner rail is.
Hu