Growing Pool, as a Hobby.

9 Ball Fan · Aug 11, 2019

Regardless of skill level; it is beneficial to all of us, for Pool to grow as a hobby. Even if you only play at home, it's beneficial to have a thriving pool industry. Better cues, balls, cloth, tables, instruction, etc.; All benefit from a thriving hobby.

Golf has trouble growing it's player base. So does pool. What suggestions do you have? Mine is; that we need a fast competitive game, which at least gives a relative novice a chance to win.

garczar · Aug 11, 2019

9 Ball Fan said:
Regardless of skill level; it is beneficial to all of us, for Pool to grow as a hobby. Even if you only play at home, it's beneficial to have a thriving pool industry. Better cues, balls, cloth, tables, instruction, etc.; All benefit from a thriving hobby.

Golf has trouble growing it's player base. So does pool. What suggestions do you have? Mine is; that we need a fast competitive game, which at least gives a relative novice a chance to win.

9ball perhaps? Pretty fast game. Easy to learn.

mikemosconi · Aug 11, 2019

Don't have all the answers, but with all the recent negative press video games are getting from these mass shootings- would not kids paying billiard games be a nice alternative as far as an indoor activity? Also - one thing for sure- reintroducing pool as a gambling activity via blockbuster movies NEVER held an audience beyond a relatively short time period- see Hustler and Color of Money - and the audience it attracted had no sustaining market qualities that would appeal to corporate America- whether one likes it or not- that is where the money is- TV time is based on sponsorship money from corporate America. So I see only two real viable entry points for long term sustainability- the classroom and something that appeals to real monied sponsorship - everything else seems to always lead nowhere.
Now, how you get there, only those who truly stand to benefit from a dollar standpoint will be willing to invest the time to figure that out- that's Capitalism!

logical · Aug 11, 2019

9 Ball Fan said:
...

Golf has trouble growing it's player base...

Compared to pool, golf has zero problems of any kind.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

sjm · Aug 11, 2019

9 Ball Fan said:
Regardless of skill level; it is beneficial to all of us, for Pool to grow as a hobby. Even if you only play at home, it's beneficial to have a thriving pool industry. Better cues, balls, cloth, tables, instruction, etc.; All benefit from a thriving hobby.

A valid post for sure.

It can be argued that as a hobby, pool is doing OK. League players, as a group, are hobbyists, and the leagues of America are still fairly healthy.

MikeMosconi's post nicely encapsulated pool's real issue. WHO plays pool is at least as important as whether people are playing pool. Substantial growth in the game can only happen if the image of both pool and the pool player is raised to the point that those hoping to reach a big audience would invest in it.

Golf was once as low as pool. As recently as the 1950's, the pro golfer needed side bets and action to make financial ends meet. High profile players like Sam Snead and Walter Hagen before him were great golfers, but they were also hustlers. Then came Arnold Palmer, who reached out to the corporate types and, by partnering with them, also jump-started golf's long-time commitment to giving to charities. Now, the PGA is viewed by most as an organization of refined, charitable, men, who usually conduct themselves as polished professionals.

Pool needs its "Arnold Palmer moment" in which it transforms itself into something more respectable. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but the pro players of today are delusional, believing that displays of refinement and self-respect will be the RESULT of making more money, not understanding that it must be the CAUSE. Until the most visible players care about pool's image, they will remain cut off from those who want to reach the important demographic groups in their advertising.

As you say, it is important for pool to grow as a hobby, but as a product, pool isn't very well positioned right now. It's not too late to change this.

btal · Aug 11, 2019

sjm said:
A valid post for sure.

It can be argued that as a hobby, pool is doing OK. League players, as a group, are hobbyists, and the leagues of America are still fairly healthy.

MikeMosconi's post nicely encapsulated pool's real issue. WHO plays pool is at least as important as whether people are playing pool. Substantial growth in the game can only happen if the image of both pool and the pool player is raised to the point that those hoping to reach a big audience would invest in it.

Golf was once as low as pool. As recently as the 1950's, the pro golfer needed side bets and action to make financial ends meet. High profile players like Sam Snead and Walter Hagen before him were great golfers, but they were also hustlers. Then came Arnold Palmer, who reached out to the corporate types and, by partnering with them, also jump-started golf's long-time commitment to giving to charities. Now, the PGA is viewed by most as an organization of refined, charitable, men, who usually conduct themselves as polished professionals.

Pool needs its "Arnold Palmer moment" in which it transforms itself into something more respectable. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but the pro players of today are delusional, believing that displays of refinement and self-respect will be the RESULT of making more money, not understanding that it must be the CAUSE. Until the most visible players care about pool's image, they will remain cut off from those who want to reach the important demographic groups in their advertising.

As you say, it is important for pool to grow as a hobby, but as a product, pool isn't very well positioned right now. It's not too late to change this.

Well said! Just a thought and start. Could a pointer system be used on telecast that shows the ideal achievable position for the shooter? The pointer system maybe being a cueball including possibly a range of which side the shooter needs to be. I know that they already draw diagrams sometimes on the screen. But it looks messy also. This cueball can quickly placed on the screen. Then the pro commentator can explain and teach the viewing public which side of the object ball needs to be (if not perfect). They will be amazed at the world's best come within an inch of perfect position consistently or close to it. A great tool to teach though it won't always be viable in certain safety situations.

sjm · Aug 11, 2019

btal said:
Well said! Just a thought and start. Could a pointer system be used on telecast that shows the ideal achievable position for the shooter? The pointer system maybe being a cueball including possibly a range of which side the shooter needs to be. I know that they already draw diagrams sometimes on the screen. But it looks messy also. This cueball can quickly placed on the screen. Then the pro commentator can explain and teach the viewing public which side of the object ball needs to be (if not perfect). They will be amazed at the world's best come within an inch of perfect position consistently or close to it. A great tool to teach though it won't always be viable in certain safety situations.

Though you have some very good and innovative ideas here, improving how this game is presented on stream or TV is not, in my opinion, relevant to getting new people interested in pool as a hobby and the suggestion that the viewer needs more evidence of how great the top pros play is, in my opinion, incorrect.

Once somebody watches our sport, they are already interested in pool. The question is "what can we do to get others to tune in?" and, in my opinion, the answer is to change pool's image for the better.

9 Ball Fan · Aug 11, 2019

logical said:
Compared to pool, golf has zero problems of any kind.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Lots and lots of golf courses have closed in recent years, due to less participation by the general public; probably because a round of golf takes several hours for an average Joe to play. In the digital era, it's hard to get people to commit to several hours of physical activity outdoors. Golf needs a shorter, faster format for amateurs.

Linwood · Aug 11, 2019

I know it's different in some areas of the country, but here pool venues are basically smokey bars.

This presents two challenges, and I think it feeds a declining spiral. The first is that most parents won't send their kids off to have fun at them because it feeds into the perception of "not a nice place" (whatever that means to them).

This then means that the source of new customers is to reach deeper into those who like smokey bars, and not the youth market. So instead of taking steps that will reassure a soccer mom it is a good idea to drop off Johnny there for a pool tournament, they tend to stress happy hours and bike night and things that Soccer Mom may secretly want to go to, but can't admit it much less send little Johnny. Over time you get older and older patrons... and eventually those patrons will die off.

You need some youth if it is to have longevity.

Smoke, here, is the part of it I do not understand. Here we have non-smoking theaters, bowling, restaurants, ball parks (yes even outdoor), water parks, even beaches. Yet not a single pool room in the area accommodates non-smokers. I have tried -- I don't philosophically object to adults smoking, but I have left the couple I tried with eyes watering fairly quickly.

One has to wonder what it is about pool, or pool room owners, or pool room patrons that make them so different from almost literally every other leisure time activity in this regard.

But whatever it is, it is a turn off for your average Soccer Mom, and if you don't get a few of them dropping off some young people, pool rooms will just die off with a new generation.

Z-Nole · Aug 11, 2019

9 Ball Fan said:
Lots and lots of golf courses have closed in recent years, due to less participation by the general public; probably because a round of golf takes several hours for an average Joe to play. In the digital era, it's hard to get people to commit to several hours of physical activity outdoors. Golf needs a shorter, faster format for amateurs.

Gold already has that. It’s called putt putt. Played it on Clearwater beach the other day. I’d rather play bar box pool, and I don’t really like at box pool

DecentShot · Aug 11, 2019

As a hobby? World wide pool seems like its as good as it can be. What is your expectation? A 14 year old kid just beat Niels in a tournament, can a 14 year old kid beat ANY PGA champion? Can a 14 year old throw a ball past Mike Trout? Right now? Pool might be as healthy as it will ever be. Im ok with that.

btal · Aug 11, 2019

sjm said:
Though you have some very good and innovative ideas here, improving how this game is presented on stream or TV is not, in my opinion, relevant to getting new people interested in pool as a hobby and the suggestion that the viewer needs more evidence of how great the top pros play is, in my opinion, incorrect.

Once somebody watches our sport, they are already interested in pool. The question is "what can we do to get others to tune in?" and, in my opinion, the answer is to change pool's image for the better.

Totally agree with you again. You and I both know that like any game the increase of knowledge deepens the interest and love for the game. My post was purely to help increasing that knowledge. Viewers are less likely to stop viewing. Tech also attracts.

pwd72s · Aug 11, 2019

sjm said:
Though you have some very good and innovative ideas here, improving how this game is presented on stream or TV is not, in my opinion, relevant to getting new people interested in pool as a hobby and the suggestion that the viewer needs more evidence of how great the top pros play is, in my opinion, incorrect.

Once somebody watches our sport, they are already interested in pool. The question is "what can we do to get others to tune in?" and, in my opinion, the answer is to change pool's image for the better.

Good thought, but how? So, a golf tournament comes to a town, I'm sure the local news media gives favorable coverage. How about a pool tournament? Some of the world's top players are in Vegas now...is there any local news coverage? Does the local population, those who tune in the 6 O'clock news, even know the tournament is going on? Since I live in a small TV market area, I could be off...

sjm · Aug 11, 2019

pwd72s said:
Good thought, but how? So, a golf tournament comes to a town, I'm sure the local news media gives favorable coverage. How about a pool tournament? Some of the world's top players are in Vegas now...is there any local news coverage? Does the local population, those who tune in the 6 O'clock news, even know the tournament is going on? Since I live in a small TV market area, I could be off...

Good post but be careful not to put the cart before the horse.

The media coverage golf gets is not the reason it has succeeded. Instead, golf's success in attracting fans and major corporate sponsorship led to its great media coverage. Media coverage was earned through gradual change in the pro golf product, which always includes major contributions to local charities wherever their tour goes, which in turn makes them important everywhere they show up. As I noted in a previous post in this thread, before Arnold Palmer, golfers toiled in obscurity and barely eked out a living.

Pool hasn't earned the media coverage it so badly wants, and to get it, an image overhaul will, in my view, be needed. I, for one, am not giving up on this happening, but unless the pros buy into presenting themselves differently, it could be a lost cause. Lest we forget, once upon a time, Barry Hearn got pro snooker players to buy in to presenting themselves in a completely different manner, making pro snooker a highly marketable product.

336Robin · Aug 11, 2019

Nice points Stu,
I've come around in my thinking on this to the point that I see the Amateur Player
as the real players. Real Players= being those who support the Industry. I think this
goes along with your post in an at least a semi- related way.

Without going into a dissertation the last 40/50 yrs saw a lot of changes in the world
and the Pool World that equals the loss of a lot of ground with the grassroots i.e.
Children. Most of us grew up playing pool in places that no longer exist. Places that weren't replaced in kind.

My opinion is that we need to grow some Pool Rooms that have a chance to raise
the next generation. A generation or two of people that love Pool could change a lot
of things but the Programs themselves may also have to undergo some changes to
keep people interested.

Interesting Pool Programs may not perfectly emulate the game the Pros play. The Amateur wants fun and entertainment.

Pool should be exciting, interesting and compel people to come play.

When you get above the Amateur level that's a good time to be serious.

A sport with no support isn't much to be serious about. I don't know how the Pros of
of today make it work. I think we are at a crossroads of sorts. Pool has become Pool
Leagues once or twice a week for the most part. Last time I checked statistics of people that played, the numbers were falling. A change could do it good.

sjm said:
A valid post for sure.

It can be argued that as a hobby, pool is doing OK. League players, as a group, are hobbyists, and the leagues of America are still fairly healthy.

MikeMosconi's post nicely encapsulated pool's real issue. WHO plays pool is at least as important as whether people are playing pool. Substantial growth in the game can only happen if the image of both pool and the pool player is raised to the point that those hoping to reach a big audience would invest in it.

Golf was once as low as pool. As recently as the 1950's, the pro golfer needed side bets and action to make financial ends meet. High profile players like Sam Snead and Walter Hagen before him were great golfers, but they were also hustlers. Then came Arnold Palmer, who reached out to the corporate types and, by partnering with them, also jump-started golf's long-time commitment to giving to charities. Now, the PGA is viewed by most as an organization of refined, charitable, men, who usually conduct themselves as polished professionals.

Pool needs its "Arnold Palmer moment" in which it transforms itself into something more respectable. It's not outside the realm of possibility, but the pro players of today are delusional, believing that displays of refinement and self-respect will be the RESULT of making more money, not understanding that it must be the CAUSE. Until the most visible players care about pool's image, they will remain cut off from those who want to reach the important demographic groups in their advertising.

As you say, it is important for pool to grow as a hobby, but as a product, pool isn't very well positioned right now. It's not too late to change this.

sjm · Aug 11, 2019

336Robin said:
Nice points Stu,
I've come around in my thinking on this to the point that I see the Amateur Player as the real players. Real Players= being those who support the Industry. I think this goes along with your post in an at least a semi- related way.

This is the reality of these times, but not the reality we necessarily prefer and, hopefully, not the inescapable reality.

JessEm · Aug 11, 2019

9 Ball Fan said:
...we need a fast competitive game, which at least gives a relative novice a chance to win.

7-Ball

I believe it was tried (and designed for?) TV in the '80's, but has since fallen by the wayside for whatever reason.

JessEm · Aug 11, 2019

btal said:
Well said! Just a thought and start. Could a pointer system be used on telecast that shows the ideal achievable position for the shooter? The pointer system maybe being a cueball including possibly a range of which side the shooter needs to be. I know that they already draw diagrams sometimes on the screen. But it looks messy also. This cueball can quickly placed on the screen. Then the pro commentator can explain and teach the viewing public which side of the object ball needs to be (if not perfect). They will be amazed at the world's best come within an inch of perfect position consistently or close to it. A great tool to teach though it won't always be viable in certain safety situations.

This would enhance understanding of shots, thus enhance interest. It would also be cool.

sjm · Aug 11, 2019

JessEm said:
7-Ball

I believe it was tried (and designed for?) TV in the '80's, but has since fallen by the wayside for whatever reason.

Neither 7-ball nor any other type of rotation pool gives the weaker player a decent chance to win.

Race to two bar table eight ball with a lag for the first break and winner breaks would still greatly favor the stronger player, but the luck factor would be great enough to give an APA6 a decent shot to win over a pro.

I have never seen pool played with rules that gave an intermediate player a decent chance to beat a pro in competition, which is why you don't get too many of them taking a shot. At the World Series of Poker, in contrast, there are always a couple of amateurs that cash for over $1,000,000, and a few of them have won. Poker's format draws in the less accomplished, but pool's format ensures that the marginal players don't bother to compete.

Pete · Aug 12, 2019

336Robin said:
Nice points Stu,
I've come around in my thinking on this to the point that I see the Amateur Player
as the real players. Real Players= being those who support the Industry. I think this
goes along with your post in an at least a semi- related way.

Without going into a dissertation the last 40/50 yrs saw a lot of changes in the world
and the Pool World that equals the loss of a lot of ground with the grassroots i.e.
Children. Most of us grew up playing pool in places that no longer exist. Places that weren't replaced in kind.

My opinion is that we need to grow some Pool Rooms that have a chance to raise
the next generation. A generation or two of people that love Pool could change a lot
of things but the Programs themselves may also have to undergo some changes to
keep people interested.

Interesting Pool Programs may not perfectly emulate the game the Pros play. The Amateur wants fun and entertainment.

Pool should be exciting, interesting and compel people to come play.

When you get above the Amateur level that's a good time to be serious.

A sport with no support isn't much to be serious about. I don't know how the Pros of
of today make it work. I think we are at a crossroads of sorts. Pool has become Pool
Leagues once or twice a week for the most part. Last time I checked statistics of people that played, the numbers were falling. A change could do it good.

For up and coming young generations what could work would be the "After School Program".

This business model has saved many Karate schools and turned them profitable. Kids get picked up after school, the come do all their homework (with tutors) and then train "Martial Arts".

This could be done in Pool Rooms...

Growing Pool, as a Hobby.

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