8 ball open table rules, BCA

CaptainJR · Oct 22, 2008

8 ball open table rules, BCA

According to what I see in the BCA 8 ball rules, there is no requirement to make a good hit on anything when the table is open.

What I could find that is in any way aplicable is copied below. There is no reference to this under '4.9 OPEN TABLE'. Under '4.11 LEGAL SHOOT' it tells you all about hitting a rail, etc., etc, but it is precluded by saying "(except on the break and when the table is open)". So everything it says about a legal shot doesn't matter when the table is open.

I think everyone knows what is meant, but that is not what it says when I read it.

The only thing I don't have to look at is the 'general rules' referenced in the '8 ball' BCA rules. I don't think so but maybe that covers this??

The reason I'm asking it is that it came up when someone just hit the cue ball 3 inches by accident when the table was open and it was discussed about if it was a file.

4.9 OPEN TABLE
(Defined) The table is "open" when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice-versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open, it is legal to hit any solid or stripe first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. However, when the table is open and the 8-ball is the first ball contacted, it is a foul and no stripe or solid may be scored in favor of the shooter. The shooter loses his turn; the incoming player is awarded cue ball in hand; any balls pocketed remain pocketed; and the incoming player addresses the balls with the table still open. On an open table, all illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed.
4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. Please Note: It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball; however, after contact with the object ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or any numbered ball must contact a rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.
4.12 ?SAFETY? SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring ?safety? in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a ?safety? to the opponent. It is the shooter?s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter?s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

tucson9ball · Oct 22, 2008

All shots

On "ALL" shots the cue ball must hit a object ball then a ball must contact a rail. Otherwise it is a foul. Even after the break, I kow what you are reading, it does not specifically say it. But yes it is a foul to just roll the cue 3 inches without hitting anything. What they refer to after the break it is a "open" table so you can hit either solids or stripes without it being a foul. A stripe into a solid or vice versa. Either way you must contact either a stripe or solid then contact a rail.
Hope this helps ya.....Keep strokin

hang-the-9 · Oct 22, 2008

CaptainJR said:
8 ball open table rules, BCA

According to what I see in the BCA 8 ball rules, there is no requirement to make a good hit on anything when the table is open.

What I could find that is in any way aplicable is copied below. There is no reference to this under '4.9 OPEN TABLE'. Under '4.11 LEGAL SHOOT' it tells you all about hitting a rail, etc., etc, but it is precluded by saying "(except on the break and when the table is open)". So everything it says about a legal shot doesn't matter when the table is open.

I think everyone knows what is meant, but that is not what it says when I read it.

The only thing I don't have to look at is the 'general rules' referenced in the '8 ball' BCA rules. I don't think so but maybe that covers this??

The reason I'm asking it is that it came up when someone just hit the cue ball 3 inches by accident when the table was open and it was discussed about if it was a file.

4.9 OPEN TABLE
(Defined) The table is "open" when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice-versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open, it is legal to hit any solid or stripe first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. However, when the table is open and the 8-ball is the first ball contacted, it is a foul and no stripe or solid may be scored in favor of the shooter. The shooter loses his turn; the incoming player is awarded cue ball in hand; any balls pocketed remain pocketed; and the incoming player addresses the balls with the table still open. On an open table, all illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed.
4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. Please Note: It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball; however, after contact with the object ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or any numbered ball must contact a rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.
4.12 ?SAFETY? SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring ?safety? in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a ?safety? to the opponent. It is the shooter?s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter?s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

From what I read, it looks like the "Except at an open table" wording could be cleared up, the rule only applies to contacting your own ball. The exception to the "ball to rail" rule does seem to flow from there, but the rule is devided into 1) and 2) with the open table exception only applying to 1. As an aside, I LOVE using that rule and having almost all players think it was a foul then putting the rulebook in their face. Know your game before you play.

Wyoming Will · Oct 22, 2008

CaptainJR said:
8 ball open table rules, BCA

According to what I see in the BCA 8 ball rules, there is no requirement to make a good hit on anything when the table is open.

What I could find that is in any way aplicable is copied below. There is no reference to this under '4.9 OPEN TABLE'. Under '4.11 LEGAL SHOOT' it tells you all about hitting a rail, etc., etc, but it is precluded by saying "(except on the break and when the table is open)". So everything it says about a legal shot doesn't matter when the table is open.

I think everyone knows what is meant, but that is not what it says when I read it.

The only thing I don't have to look at is the 'general rules' referenced in the '8 ball' BCA rules. I don't think so but maybe that covers this??

The reason I'm asking it is that it came up when someone just hit the cue ball 3 inches by accident when the table was open and it was discussed about if it was a file.

4.9 OPEN TABLE
(Defined) The table is "open" when the choice of groups (stripes or solids) has not yet been determined. When the table is open, it is legal to hit a solid first to make a stripe or vice-versa. Note: The table is always open immediately after the break shot. When the table is open, it is legal to hit any solid or stripe first in the process of pocketing the called stripe or solid. However, when the table is open and the 8-ball is the first ball contacted, it is a foul and no stripe or solid may be scored in favor of the shooter. The shooter loses his turn; the incoming player is awarded cue ball in hand; any balls pocketed remain pocketed; and the incoming player addresses the balls with the table still open. On an open table, all illegally pocketed balls remain pocketed.
4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail. Please Note: It is permissible for the shooter to bank the cue ball off a rail before contacting the object ball; however, after contact with the object ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or any numbered ball must contact a rail. Failure to meet these requirements is a foul.
4.12 ?SAFETY? SHOT
For tactical reasons, a player may choose to pocket an obvious object ball and also discontinue a turn at the table by declaring ?safety? in advance. A safety shot is defined as a legal shot. If the shooting player intends to play safe by pocketing an obvious object ball, then prior to the shot, the shooter must declare a ?safety? to the opponent. It is the shooter?s responsibility to make the opponent aware of the intended safety shot. If this is not done, and one of the shooter?s object balls is pocketed, the shooter will be required to shoot again. Any ball pocketed on a safety shot remains pocketed.

Unfortunately the rules are not a "how to" on 8-ball. There is an assumption that the reader understands the general rules of pool. Yes, it appears you have found a gap in the rules which should be addressed which may buy you a drink but it won't buy you another shot.

leehayes · Oct 22, 2008

Ok, so here's a follow up question similar in content.

The table is open, you shoot a shot and pocket a high ball and as a result of a carom knock a low ball in. Is the table open or do you have high balls because you were shooting at them.

Patrick Johnson · Oct 22, 2008

leehayes said:
Ok, so here's a follow up question similar in content.

The table is open, you shoot a shot and pocket a high ball and as a result of a carom knock a low ball in. Is the table open or do you have high balls because you were shooting at them.

Whatever shot you called (or were obviously trying to make) is what you get.

pj
cgho

memikey · Oct 22, 2008

leehayes said:
Ok, so here's a follow up question similar in content.

The table is open, you shoot a shot and pocket a high ball and as a result of a carom knock a low ball in. Is the table open or do you have high balls because you were shooting at them.

This is my take based on WPA Rules (virtually identical to BCA).....

First of all it mainly depends upon whether you called a ball. The allowance for you to play high on to low or vice versa to make a ball on an open table doesn't remove the need to call the ball you are potting. The only thing which removes the need to call the intended ball is whether the shot is or isn't so obvious that it doesn't need calling.

Obviously if you called the high ball that's the group you are now on and if you called the low ball that's the group you are on.

If you didn't call anything before shooting and if the position of the cue ball/high ball before you took the shot were such that the high ball could be reasonably considered as constituting an obvious intended pot which didn't require calling you would be on high balls.

You can't possibly be on the low balls if you didn't call the potted low ball in advance because caroms, banks and combinations always need to be called no matter how simple they may seem.

Much longer than Patrick's as I get paid by the word

Patrick Johnson · Oct 22, 2008

4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots (except on the break and when the table is open), the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first and (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail.

This is very poorly worded, but I wouldn't try to hang my hat on it to get away with a scratch. As most of us know, the exception only applies to having to hit one of your group, not to having to hit a rail.

It would be simple to change the order of phrases in the first sentence and fix it:

4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first (except on the break and when the table is open) and either (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail.

pj
chgo

Cuebacca · Oct 22, 2008

Patrick Johnson said:
This is very poorly worded, but I wouldn't try to hang my hat on it to get away with a scratch. As most of us know, the exception only applies to having to hit one of your group, not to having to hit a rail.

It would be simple to change the order of phrases in the first sentence and fix it:

4.11 LEGAL SHOT
(Defined) On all shots the shooter must hit one of his group of balls first (except on the break and when the table is open) and either (1) pocket a numbered ball, or (2) cause the cue ball or any numbered ball to contact a rail.

pj
chgo

You could even remove the part about the break, since the table is always open on the break.

It also might be good to add, "It is always a foul to contact the 8-ball first, unless the shooter's group has already been cleared." I would presume this is mentioned somewhere else in the rules, but just from reading the "legal shot" section posted, it makes it sound like you can hit the 8-ball first when the table is open.

Edit: Ah, yes, I see this is mentioned in the "Open Table" section.

Bob Jewett · Oct 22, 2008

CaptainJR said:
8 ball open table rules, BCA

According to what I see in the BCA 8 ball rules, ...

The World Standardized Rules changed on January 1st, 2008. There is probably not much use in rehashing what was wrong with the old set, except maybe to point out that it is difficult to write clear, concise rules. Here is the current rule on an open table from the WSR:

3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups
Before groups are determined, the table is said to be "open," and before each shot, the shooter must call his intended ball. If the shooter legally pockets his called ball, the corresponding group becomes his, and his opponent is assigned the other group. If he fails to legally pocket his called ball, the table remains open and play passes to the other player. When the table is "open", any object ball may be struck first except the eight ball.

For the full, official text of the WSR, visit the WPA website at http://www.wpa-pool.com/

leehayes · Oct 22, 2008

memikey said:
This is my take based on WPA Rules (virtually identical to BCA).....

First of all it mainly depends upon whether you called a ball. The allowance for you to play high on to low or vice versa to make a ball on an open table doesn't remove the need to call the ball you are potting. The only thing which removes the need to call the intended ball is whether the shot is or isn't so obvious that it doesn't need calling.

Obviously if you called the high ball that's the group you are now on and if you called the low ball that's the group you are on.

If you didn't call anything before shooting and if the position of the cue ball/high ball before you took the shot were such that the high ball could be reasonably considered as constituting an obvious intended pot which didn't require calling you would be on high balls.

You can't possibly be on the low balls if you didn't call the potted low ball in advance because caroms, banks and combinations always need to be called no matter how simple they may seem.

Much longer than Patrick's as I get paid by the word

thanks guys....that was why I asked because the APA rules say that is still an open table. Just wanted to be sure because I thought it was different when you called a pocket.

8 ball open table rules, BCA

CaptainJR

Shiver me timbers.

tucson9ball

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hang-the-9

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Wyoming Will

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leehayes

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Patrick Johnson

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memikey

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Patrick Johnson

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Cuebacca

________

Bob Jewett

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leehayes

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