English?

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JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
I think the first point is a bit of nit-picking of terms, I've heard said it both ways. I just call it top, bottom and side.

On the second point, you are right about top spin. However, where this instructor is claiming top and bottom are not english, he isn't including them in his statement. He is only referring to side, in which case your not disagreeing with him.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I don't agree.

PS

I wish I was as good as posting as you!

Practice my young student. With only 900 posts you are but a padawan in this game. Everyone knows that to to become a true Jedi-posting master you can only get there through the make-a-million posts method. :)

-----oh and Google and Wikipedia and YouTube are your friends! :)
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
I think the first point is a bit of nit-picking of terms, I've heard said it both ways. I just call it top, bottom and side.

On the second point, you are right about top spin. However, where this instructor is claiming top and bottom are not english, he isn't including them in his statement. He is only referring to side, in which case your not disagreeing with him.

Well it's an important nit to pick I would think. I understand that you have heard it both ways so which way do you think is correct? Is top spin also top english?

My bone to pick on the second claim is that it's misleading since it doesn't tell the student that top and bottom spin alter the path imediately after impact. In other words this instructor is busting myths that don't exist and creating new ones. At least that is how I see it.

This is the problem with YouTube and the net in general. Anyone can post bad advice and who knows how many people will use that bad advice.

Well, anyway I am NOT an instructor, I am a student of the game and luckily for me I am beyond this particular instructor's level of advice.
 

gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
Correct
Top and bottom are not considered English.....only left and right are considered to be so.

I am unsure as to the origination of why side spin is considered English, but I do know that follow and draw are not considered so.

*edit*
I am drunk which explains my slightly strange English ;)
 

12squared

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hi John,

I've always used "english" to describe left & right spin, anything on the vertical axis was not labelled as such. However, it's just the way I was taught to describe the cueball hit - but you are 100% right that once you leave center, all spin principals apply. So with that said, you are probably right.

Regarding tangent line or how the cueball leaves the object ball, of course high & low "spin/english" will have an effect on the direction of the cueball overall, but not at the point of contact, the alteration takes effect only after the cueball has enough time to bend. Note the 30 degree rule: if the cue ball is rolling forward when hitting the object ball, it will go apprx 30 degrees vs 90 degrees following the tangent line if it was hit with a stun stroke. So functionally, yes, "english/spin" does have an effect.

In addition, I believe that left & right spin can alter the path of the cueball also. Not changing the path from the actual contact point, that does not change, but because that contact point would be different than a center ball hit to make the same shot. The side spin throws the object ball slightly so you can hit it fuller or thinner than with center ball. Plus the path of the cueball is slightly different because of swerve or whatever you want to call it.

I hope some of this makes sense...it's late for me.

Dave
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
too funny!!

I came across a man on YouTube who is an instructor with a BCA certification who claims that english only refers to sidespin and that top spin and reverse (draw) spin don't count as "english".

So I went to the table and wiped all the chalk off my cue and tried to apply some top spin and some draw and had a really hard time with it - when I applied a little chalk however I could apply top and reverse.

So the next video in this man's series claims that using english doesn't change the angle at which the cue ball leaves the object ball and he demonstrates this using right and left english.

So, first of all I know my billiard history in so far as what's been written and most seem to agree that Jack Carr was the first to use chalk to impart meaningful spin to the cueball through the use of his "magical twisting chalk" which he sold for a lot of money.

Secondly, top spin and reverse spin count as "English" because you cannot get them in any more RPMs than left or right without chalk.

Which brings me then to my second issue with said BCA instructor's contention that spin does not affect the tangent line. While he is correct that the initial collision always results in the same tangent being followed his instruction indicates that this is a constant over distance. From what I understand this is not true as top spin will make the cue ball go below the tangent line and draw will make the cue ball go above the tangent line.

Of course the instructor's premise is based on his contention that the only thing that counts as "english" is side-spin and not top and bottom.

So I ask the knowledgeable people of AZ, do you agree with this instructor on these two points?



John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
John is wrong and slamming the other guy for lacking knowledge. "English" is the American word for "side" since it was originally learned from the English. Side by definition can't be centerline, including top or bottom. The English have other designations for high and low centerline hits since it would be ridiculous to call them side.

Of course if you don't know what English means in pool terms then you can't evaluate the truth of his other statements, which while generally true appear to be slightly in error if John is quoting correctly, something he has been known to have problems with.

Hu

Oh it's you, the stalker.

Here you go Mr. Stalker,

"The leather tip lost its effectiveness when it became shiny with use and had to be replaced frequently. An English billiards teacher, Jack Carr, learned that putting chalk on the tip prevented miscues. He was also evidently the first player to hit the ball off-center to apply spin."

From this source: http://www.hickoksports.com/history/billiard.shtml

I don't feel like going to my Billiard Encyclopedia which I am sure would back me up here.

My point is that we talk about top spin and back spin, reverse english, top english (do I need to look these up for you as well as to use or can you believe me?) I understand Hu that you have a pseudo-academic and embellished experienced approach to discussing pool but surely you understand that some people refer to top and bottom also as English.

And surely you understand at least on some level that top and bottom affect the direction of the cue ball? That much at least we learn from Dr. Dave Alciatore with his excellent video series, also on YouTube. Perhaps the first BCA instructor would benefit from studying those videos.

The British call it side and screw respectively.

You better get on these folks as well and tell them proper term for applying force to the cue ball above center - what is that term again?

http://www.poolskill.com/yahoo-pool-guide/earning-skills/beginners/using-english/high/
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Correct
Top and bottom are not considered English.....only left and right are considered to be so.

I am unsure as to the origination of why side spin is considered English, but I do know that follow and draw are not considered so.

*edit*
I am drunk which explains my slightly strange English ;)

Do you have a source on this?

I only ask because before the use of chalk it was just as hard to draw or follow as it was to apply side spin. Try it and see what happens.
 

12310bch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Apparently I will have to re-post this every 6-months or so in order for the question to be general knowledge.


It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Swedish had a traditional dish of fermented fish called ," Ingglisch." It was eaten as a side dish to the entree.
For right- handed diners it was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed diners it was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch.

Swedish pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch. When Swedish pool players traveled to England for tournaments the English players heard this reference and, being as arrogant as they were, thought that the Swedes were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingglisch or bottom Ingglisch.

I think the matter is now settled.
 

Rak9up

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Apparently I will have to re-post this every 6-months or so in order for the question to be general knowledge.


It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Swedish had a traditional dish of fermented fish called ," Ingglisch." It was eaten as a side dish to the entree.
For right- handed diners it was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed diners it was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch.

Swedish pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingglisch or left Ingglisch. When Swedish pool players traveled to England for tournaments the English players heard this reference and, being as arrogant as they were, thought that the Swedes were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingglisch or bottom Ingglisch.

I think the matter is now settled.

It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Chineese loved the American Big Mac which in Chineese is called ,ping pong pow wu wa wu but it was just easier to order it calling it " Ingerish." It was eaten as a main dish with chopsticks and rice.
For right- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingerish or left Ingerish.

Chineese pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingerish or left Ingerish. When Chineese pool players traveled to America for tournaments the American players heard this reference and, being just how they talked always adding "R's" they thought that the Chineese were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingerish or bottom Ingerish.

I think the matter is now settled
 

9bizzle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't know the exact origin of the word, but I don't think it's neccessary to know that to understand that sidespin is "english" and top/botttom, center ball, high/low, along the center axis is follow, stun or stop, and draw. Sure, you can combine the two, english with draw or follow, but they are different animals with different purposes. I thought it was fairly common knowledge among pool players. Every instructional book I have ever read will back me up on this.
 

12310bch

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's never that simple.Here's the truth. The Chineese loved the American Big Mac which in Chineese is called ,ping pong pow wu wa wu but it was just easier to order it calling it " Ingerish." It was eaten as a main dish with chopsticks and rice.
For right- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the right side of the main plate
and for left- handed chopstick diners the rice was placed on the left side. Thus it became commonly referred to as right Ingerish or left Ingerish.

Chineese pool players picked this up and, as a joke at first, started calling their side spin either right Ingerish or left Ingerish. When Chineese pool players traveled to America for tournaments the American players heard this reference and, being just how they talked always adding "R's" they thought that the Chineese were saying ,"English."

Thereafter and to this day we now refer to sidespin as English. :

So you see, there can be no top Ingerish or bottom Ingerish.

I think the matter is now settled

lmfao:rotflmao1: But tell me , how do the Chinese pronounce ,"Pool?"
and also I thought the chinese Big Mac was called," How Now Blown Cow."
 

Blue Hog ridr

World Famous Fisherman.
Silver Member
Everyone knows that Chuck Norris invented the spinning left and right side kicks, and the stun shot. So, from here on in, left, right and stun shall be known as putting some Chuck on the ball. Otay.
 

JasonCrugar

analysis paralysis
Silver Member
Everyone knows that Chuck Norris invented the spinning left and right side kicks, and the stun shot. So, from here on in, left, right and stun shall be known as putting some Chuck on the ball. Otay.

i put so much chuck on it the fuggin ball exploded... now if we could those aiming crackpots to just admit experience beats any aiming system...
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Well if I am wrong then I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. I have always understood "English" to the be the term applied to all forms of spin on the ball. Of course in conversation among players we never say top english, instead we just say top, we never say left english, we just say left, as in I hit it with a tip of low left, or a tip of draw.

I have cracked the Billiard Encyclopedia and there is some interesting reading there. Namely that Mignaud did not invent the leather tip but that he discovered how to dome it for maximum effect and that chalk was used before it's "supposed discovery by Bartley and Carr in the early 1820s".

And in that book on page 257 there is a quote about using spin - which refers to both side spin and follow and draw - whereby the authors of the BE, make no distinction just for sidespin and refer to all the spin types as "english" when describing the 1806's author's familiarity of it.

Therefore I conclude for the moment that "english" refers to ALL manner of meaningful spin generated by an off center hit. Not the tiny bit that you get when you miscue as it what happens when an off center hit is tried without chalk.

It is my further conclusion that without the use of chalk or a suitable substitute the cueball action which can be obtained with a chalked tip are nearly impossible. Therefore the term English should be applied to all forms of such spin that alter the path of the cueball from the tangent line or after striking a rail.

Thus draw, follow, reverse, top, left and right and all combinations thereof all fall under the category of "english" or spin and should be accordingly treated as such by certified instructors. In my opinion of course.

Had I not sold my book collection many years ago I would go through them and see how authors have treated these terms. At the moment I only have the Gospool by Freddy B. Freddy doesn't concern himself with such trivial things like what "english" is or isn't and instead the tone figures that if you don't know it then you are probably an "egg". (from his glossary).

And yes, pool is one hell of a drug. It's the high you can't buy.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Well if I am wrong then I am wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. I have always understood "English" to the be the term applied to all forms of spin on the ball. Of course in conversation among players we never say top english, instead we just say top, we never say left english, we just say left, as in I hit it with a tip of low left, or a tip of draw.

I have cracked the Billiard Encyclopedia and there is some interesting reading there. Namely that Mignaud did not invent the leather tip but that he discovered how to dome it for maximum effect and that chalk was used before it's "supposed discovery by Bartley and Carr in the early 1820s".

And in that book on page 257 there is a quote about using spin - which refers to both side spin and follow and draw - whereby the authors of the BE, make no distinction just for sidespin and refer to all the spin types as "english" when describing the 1806's author's familiarity of it.

Therefore I conclude for the moment that "english" refers to ALL manner of meaningful spin generated by an off center hit. Not the tiny bit that you get when you miscue as it what happens when an off center hit is tried without chalk.

It is my further conclusion that without the use of chalk or a suitable substitute the cueball action which can be obtained with a chalked tip are nearly impossible. Therefore the term English should be applied to all forms of such spin that alter the path of the cueball from the tangent line or after striking a rail.

Thus draw, follow, reverse, top, left and right and all combinations thereof all fall under the category of "english" or spin and should be accordingly treated as such by certified instructors. In my opinion of course.

Had I not sold my book collection many years ago I would go through them and see how authors have treated these terms. At the moment I only have the Gospool by Freddy B. Freddy doesn't concern himself with such trivial things like what "english" is or isn't and instead the tone figures that if you don't know it then you are probably an "egg". (from his glossary).

And yes, pool is one hell of a drug. It's the high you can't buy.
 

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
Practice my young student. With only 900 posts you are but a padawan in this game. Everyone knows that to to become a true Jedi-posting master you can only get there through the make-a-million posts method. :)

-----oh and Google and Wikipedia and YouTube are your friends! :)

Not true!!! There are many posting systems that will help speed up the process..

Have you not heard of....

The Gost Posting System?
The Three Key System? (all posts can be made using only three keys)

Of course there is also some CTE posting system that is being used by some...........Rumor has it that only Sith Lords on the Dark Side know how to use it........;)



BTW....I don't think BCA instructors have a set foundation of teaching principles....at least not in "print" anywhere...It does not appear to be too difficult to get "certified".....www.bca-pool.com

An another note....I have heard on more than one occaision and "English" person ask why Americans refer to it as English???? The English refer to it as "side" or "screw"
 
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