SIDESPIN … Everything You Need to Know

dr_dave · Oct 18, 2019

I just posted a new video on YouTube that demonstrates everything you need to know about sidespin. Here it is:

NV J.29 – SIDESPIN … Everything You Need to Know

Topics covered (with YouTube video time-stamp links) include:
- terminology (0:26)
--- running/reverse/outside/inside (1:10)
--- "tips" of english (2:43)
- examples and shot types (3:26)
--- kick with spin (4:30)
--- throw shot (4:45)
--- rail cut shot (4:58)
---- swerve/massé shot (5:15)
- effects (5:32)
--- drag shot (7:20)
- useful drills (9:02)
--- clock system (9:20)
--- target practice (10:08)

Please let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions. Also let me know if you think I left out anything important.

FYI, here are the supporting videos mentioned in the video that cover in detail CB deflection and how to adjust your aim when using sidespin:
- squirt/swerve/throw/deflection
- Got English?
- Back-Hand English (BHE) and Front-Hand English (FHE)
- System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS)

Enjoy,
Dave

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

Toxictom · Oct 19, 2019

I watched this yesterday and found it very helpful as I do with all of your videos.

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

Toxictom said:
I watched this yesterday and found it very helpful as I do with all of your videos.

Thanks. I'm glad to hear it.

Regards,
Dave

Hits 'em Hard · Oct 19, 2019

dr_dave said:
Please let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions. Also let me know if you think I left out anything important.

The idea of ‘tips’ of English is based off a 13mm shaft. With the proliferation of smaller tips, it is wiser to refer to the tip offset as a percentage till miscue limit. But aren’t all tips leaving an approximate 3mm chalk mark on the cue ball? So wouldn’t a ‘tip’ of English realistically be a 3mm shift? I know this is a slight change on thinking, but it removes ambiguity when dealing with random shaft sizes.

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
The idea of ‘tips’ of English is based off a 13mm shaft. With the proliferation of smaller tips, it is wiser to refer to the tip offset as a percentage till miscue limit.

I have always preferred and recommended "percentage spin" as an alternative to "tips of english," per the info here:

percentage and "tips" of english

Hits 'em Hard said:
But aren’t all tips leaving an approximate 3mm chalk mark on the cue ball? So wouldn’t a ‘tip’ of English realistically be a 3mm shift?

The chalk-mark size depends on tip hardness, tip curvature, and shot speed, and can vary quite a lot. For more info, see: TP B.22 – How peak tip contact force and contact patch size vary with shot speed.

Hits 'em Hard said:
I know this is a slight change on thinking, but it removes ambiguity when dealing with random shaft sizes.

This is already one of the many interpretations of "tips" of english already out there. IMO, it is no better than any of the others.

Regard,
Dave

Hits 'em Hard · Oct 19, 2019

dr_dave said:
I have always preferred and recommended "percentage spin" as an alternative to "tips of english," per the info here:

percentage and "tips" of english

The chalk-mark size depends on tip hardness, tip curvature, and shot speed, and can vary quite a lot. For more info, see: TP B.22 – How peak tip contact force and contact patch size vary with shot speed.

This is already one of the many interpretations of "tips" of english already out there. IMO, it is no better than any of the others.

Regard,
Dave

While I agree a break shot with a shooting tip generally leaves a much larger chalk mark, you’re deflecting the point I made. Within reason, a tip that can apply max spin without miscuing has a certain curvature to it. It can’t be too flat, or too round. There is a sweet spot for curvature and diameter of shaft. A dime curve on a 14mm shaft is nearly unplayable. So let’s be realistic here. A standard chalk mark left from a standard stroke is 3mm.

So a ‘tip’ of English is actually only a 3mm shift. Regardless of shaft diameter or curvature of tip.

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
dr_dave said:

I have always preferred and recommended "percentage spin" as an alternative to "tips of english," per the info here:

percentage and "tips" of english

The chalk-mark size depends on tip hardness, tip curvature, and shot speed, and can vary quite a lot. For more info, see: TP B.22 – How peak tip contact force and contact patch size vary with shot speed.

This is already one of the many interpretations of "tips" of english already out there. IMO, it is no better than any of the others.

Click to expand...

While I agree a break shot with a shooting tip generally leaves a much larger chalk mark, you’re deflecting the point I made. Within reason, a tip that can apply max spin without miscuing has a certain curvature to it. It can’t be too flat, or too round. There is a sweet spot for curvature and diameter of shaft. A dime curve on a 14mm shaft is nearly unplayable. So let’s be realistic here. A standard chalk mark left from a standard stroke is 3mm.

So a ‘tip’ of English is actually only a 3mm shift. Regardless of shaft diameter or curvature of tip.

I'll buy that. An average chalk mark left by a tip of average curvature and hardness with an average shot is about 3mm.

Regardless, I still think "tips" of english has way too many definitions and is therefore too confusing.

Regards,
Dave

Hits 'em Hard · Oct 19, 2019

dr_dave said:
I'll buy that. An average chalk mark left by a tip of average curvature and hardness with an average shot is about 3mm.

Regardless, I still think "tips" of english has way too many definitions and is therefore too confusing.

Regards,
Dave

Then maybe you should set the definition for what a ‘tip’ of English is. As you’ve taken it upon yourself to refine certain aspects of knowledge, this should be one of those too.

The bigger issue I face when dealing with trying to get people to use proper side spin, is when I tell someone to use max spin. They hardly ever hit max spin. So I have to get them to understand tip contact points, which is where I talk about the 3mm contact point. It helps people realize easier(without having to talk about shaft diameter) that there is a lot of room on the cue ball that can be hit.

Bob Jewett · Oct 19, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
... The bigger issue I face when dealing with trying to get people to use proper side spin, is when I tell someone to use max spin. They hardly ever hit max spin....

There is an easy way to use a striped ball to illustrate this. If the stripe is vertical and aligned to the direction of the shot, they can hit all the way over where just the side of the tip contacts the stripe. Then show then the chalk mark.

Hits 'em Hard · Oct 19, 2019

Bob Jewett said:
There is an easy way to use a striped ball to illustrate this. If the stripe is vertical and aligned to the direction of the shot, they can hit all the way over where just the side of the tip contacts the stripe. Then show then the chalk mark.

But that doesn’t fix the persons issue to start with. Trying to get most players around a ‘B’ level to try something outside their comfort level is hard.

Grandslam · Oct 19, 2019

Great explanations as usual

You would be a master teacher in a different environment.

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

Hits 'em Hard said:
Then maybe you should set the definition for what a ‘tip’ of English is. As you’ve taken it upon yourself to refine certain aspects of knowledge, this should be one of those too.

I prefer instead to encourage people to use percentage spin instead; although, for the people who still want to use "tips," I have all of the common interpretations (including "tip chalk marks") listed on the "tips" of english resource page.

Hits 'em Hard said:
The bigger issue I face when dealing with trying to get people to use proper side spin, is when I tell someone to use max spin.

As Bob pointed out, a striped ball is very useful to help people visualize the miscue limit. Here's an illustration from the percentage spin and "tips" of english resource page:

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

Grandslam said:
Great explanations as usual

You would be a master teacher in a different environment.

Thank you.

Regards,
Dave

buckshotshoey · Oct 19, 2019

Dr Dave..... My Hero!

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

buckshotshoey said:
Dr Dave..... My Hero!

Thank you. Were there specific things in the new video that you liked more than others? I'm curious to know what people think because I have several more videos planned in the "Everything You Need to Know" series.

Thanks again,
Dave

dr_dave · Oct 19, 2019

Grandslam said:
You would be a master teacher in a different environment.

Thank you. Although, does that mean I should be teaching differently in my pool videos? If so, I am open to suggestions from you and others.

Regards,
Dave

3kushn · Oct 20, 2019

dr_dave said:
I'll buy that. An average chalk mark left by a tip of average curvature and hardness with an average shot is about 3mm.

Regardless, I still think "tips" of english has way too many definitions and is therefore too confusing.

Regards,
Dave

Why not define the offset to a desired result. Such as, if I shoot straight across the table (long to long rail) where is the tip placement to land 1diamond right or left, 2 diamonds, 3 diamonds ..... Diamonds of English rather than Tips or Percentages.

I only say this since everyone has different strokes and different abilities applying spins, so if we teach this or that certain pinpoint on the cueball is where it must be hit the results will be different for most. Then the instruction will seem inaccurate and the response will be the usual "That doesn't work for me"

Patrick Johnson · Oct 20, 2019

3kushn said:
Why not define the offset to a desired result. Such as, if I shoot straight across the table (long to long rail) where is the tip placement to land 1diamond right or left, 2 diamonds, 3 diamonds ..... Diamonds of English rather than Tips or Percentages.

Here's a post from several years ago about that.

But defining the tip offset this way is one thing - how do you describe where the tip should contact the CB?

pj
chgo

dr_dave · Oct 20, 2019

3kushn said:
Why not define the offset to a desired result. Such as, if I shoot straight across the table (long to long rail) where is the tip placement to land 1diamond right or left, 2 diamonds, 3 diamonds ..... Diamonds of English rather than Tips or Percentages.

That’s one of “interpretations” of “tips of english” on the resource page, where 1 “tip” corresponds to 1 “diamond” of rebound angle change.

Regards,
Dave

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