Early 70's point blanks.

cueman

cueman

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I had a good talk with Bob Meucci at the Expo and asked him about his point blank business. He reconfirmed that Balabushka, Szamboti and Helmstetter all bought a lot of blanks from him. Here is the dates and history as best as memory would serve.
1971 he built wood veneer blanks for George and Gus.
1972 he built wood veneer blanks for them and others also.
1973 he built the so called "Wico blanks" that were made with seamless plastic veneers. I say so called, because he made them while he worked with Wico, but that was a side business of his and Wico was not involved in the the manufacturering.
So if you have a Bushka or Szamboti from 71 or 72 it is most likely not a Spain blank, but it is a Meucci blank. He said he always used maple veneers and Spain mostly used holly veneers. So if you can tell the difference in the maple and holly wood veneers you can tell whether it is a Spain or a Meucci blank. The Spain blanks would have a lighter colored white veneer instead of natural maple color. Most of the blanks were the black, orange, green and white.
 
hangemhigh

hangemhigh

Known Sinner
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cueman said:
I had a good talk with Bob Meucci at the Expo and asked him about his point blank business. He reconfirmed that Balabushka, Szamboti and Helmstetter all bought a lot of blanks from him. Here is the dates and history as best as memory would serve.
1971 he built wood veneer blanks for George and Gus.
1972 he built wood veneer blanks for them and others also.
1973 he built the so called "Wico blanks" that were made with seamless plastic veneers. I say so called, because he made them while he worked with Wico, but that was a side business of his and Wico was not involved in the the manufacturering.
So if you have a Bushka or Szamboti from 71 or 72 it is most likely not a Spain blank, but it is a Meucci blank. He said he always used maple veneers and Spain mostly used holly veneers. So if you can tell the difference in the maple and holly wood veneers you can tell whether it is a Spain or a Meucci blank. The Spain blanks would have a lighter colored white veneer instead of natural maple color. Most of the blanks were the black, orange, green and white.
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Great info. That would give rise to the possibility of a 70-72 Balabushka blanks having one of three builders; Spain, Davis, and Meucci. Is there any discernible difference between the Spain and Davis built blanks?
 
classiccues

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
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cueman said:
I had a good talk with Bob Meucci at the Expo and asked him about his point blank business. He reconfirmed that Balabushka, Szamboti and Helmstetter all bought a lot of blanks from him. Here is the dates and history as best as memory would serve.
1971 he built wood veneer blanks for George and Gus.
1972 he built wood veneer blanks for them and others also.
1973 he built the so called "Wico blanks" that were made with seamless plastic veneers. I say so called, because he made them while he worked with Wico, but that was a side business of his and Wico was not involved in the the manufacturering.
So if you have a Bushka or Szamboti from 71 or 72 it is most likely not a Spain blank, but it is a Meucci blank. He said he always used maple veneers and Spain mostly used holly veneers. So if you can tell the difference in the maple and holly wood veneers you can tell whether it is a Spain or a Meucci blank. The Spain blanks would have a lighter colored white veneer instead of natural maple color. Most of the blanks were the black, orange, green and white.
Click to expand...

No offense Chris, but having seen a lot of the notes and heard the tapes from the Encyclopedia and first BB research, you would think this would have been mentioned a lot earlier. Unless he comes with a receipt, or Tascarella comes with confirmation through the Bushka archives, I don't think his memory is going to qualify.

Even Barry would have to have something from him, or in Gus's notes. Then the question would beg why didn't Palmer also use them, since they got from Gus and Burton. So I would have to say throw Balner on the needed list of collaborators. (Outside of the WICO Gus points)

Also, there are no Meucci early blanks that would even qualify in appearance or quality, to even be confused with something that is on a Gus or George. Here I have to see paper.

JV
 
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cutter

cutter

Steve Klein Custom Cues
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Early 70's Blanks

No offense to you Chris, but I think he's been drinking his own cool aid.
I'd love to hear Pete Tasc's take on this.
 
cueman

cueman

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Not sure why so many of you want to turn this in to a bash Meucci thread, but I really think those who are doing so are way out of line. Bob Meucci has done more to influence cue building than all of us in this thread put together. Every time something good he has done gets brought up the childish flamers show up. So those who disbelieve, you prove it wrong. You want proof he actually sold these guys blanks. I have no proof other than an eye witness who was there. You expect someone to have a 40 year old receipt as proof. He was in my booth talking to me and I asked him about it.

I don't know what kind of ax you have to grind with Bob, but to think a Bushka would be devalued if we knew it has a Meucci blank in it must be a fear here. Some people can not even bring themselves to admit he built the "Wico" blanks as is seen in another thread. Those were built on a challenge from Burton that the seamless veneers could not be prefected.

He said he only built the plastic veneer blanks for a few months, but built the wood veneer blanks for around two years before. He did not say Bushka or Gus used any of his plastic blanks. He only said they used his wood blanks, and after he quit making the wood blanks for them, Gus got good at it and built them for himself and George. I have read bits and pieces of this in other publications through the years and what he told me matches most of what I have read, so I believe him.
 
C

ChampionsRepair

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No offense to anyone participating in this thread. The issue here is that for some, it is impossible to seperate Bob Meucci the cue maker from Meucci production cues. Bob Meucci is one of the greatest cue makers of all time. Meucci production cues IMO are not even good cues. But I am capable of understanding the difference between an individuals capability as a craftsman and his ability to offer a quality product as the owner of a production business. They are two entirely different things...
 
Jager Monster

Jager Monster

Got Szamboti?
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ChampionsRepair said:
No offense to anyone participating in this thread. The issue here is that for some, it is impossible to seperate Bob Meucci the cue maker from Meucci production cues. Bob Meucci is one of the greatest cue makers of all time. Meucci production cues IMO are not even good cues. But I am capable of understanding the difference between an individuals capability as a craftsman and his ability to offer a quality product as the owner of a production business. They are two entirely different things...
Click to expand...

Well said.....................

Mike
 
classiccues

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
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cueman said:
Not sure why so many of you want to turn this in to a bash Meucci thread, but I really think those who are doing so are way out of line. Bob Meucci has done more to influence cue building than all of us in this thread put together. Every time something good he has done gets brought up the childish flamers show up. So those who disbelieve, you prove it wrong. You want proof he actually sold these guys blanks. I have no proof other than an eye witness who was there. You expect someone to have a 40 year old receipt as proof. He was in my booth talking to me and I asked him about it.

I don't know what kind of ax you have to grind with Bob, but to think a Bushka would be devalued if we knew it has a Meucci blank in it must be a fear here. Some people can not even bring themselves to admit he built the "Wico" blanks as is seen in another thread. Those were built on a challenge from Burton that the seamless veneers could not be prefected.

He said he only built the plastic veneer blanks for a few months, but built the wood veneer blanks for around two years before. He did not say Bushka or Gus used any of his plastic blanks. He only said they used his wood blanks, and after he quit making the wood blanks for them, Gus got good at it and built them for himself and George. I have read bits and pieces of this in other publications through the years and what he told me matches most of what I have read, so I believe him.
Click to expand...

Chris,
The proof is not to disprove him, it's the other way around. It's not bash Meucci at all. I have never read anywhere except here and on the ICA site about him supplying George and Gus. We have paper trails and proof on every other facet of blank making. You can contact Balner, and know he said he BOUGHT them from Gus and Spain. We know there is well documented proof that Burton supplied them to George and Palmer. We know Burton started the idea of the WICO point and gave up on it THEN Bob took it over, THEN Gordon Hart. The fact is there is a paper trail, and it's also in Burtons memoirs.

Believe me, if it's what happened, it's better to be on the right side of history. You would think after 3 editions of the Blue Book and 3 editions of the BE, that something would have come up. I am not saying yes or no, I am saying there has to be a record, or other collaborators. You mention you are talking to someone that "was" there, well it's awfully convienent that the other two aren't.

This is like me saying I made blanks for Bushka, disprove it. It doesn't work that way. You and I both know that.

BTW you cannot separate Bob the cuemaker from Meucci cues, they are one and the same. Unless you can show me a Meucci cue made before Bob started his shop in 1975. In 20 plus years I have never seen one, been offered one, heard a myth of one, etc.. Again, rewriting history does take some proof, IMHO.

JV
 
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manwon

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
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I think this is interesting to say the least, but if we are going to re-write history on this scale I think we need more information, such as, copies of receipts from the time period or other documentation from the files of the cue makers mentioned.

One thing I do not understand is why would Helmstetter buy blanks from anyone during that time frame, Adam was in full operation at that time and their products were being made in Japan.

Chris, I believe that the information you provided was given to you by Bob Meucci, but I do not understand some of it, if it is true then it will change history. Also wasn't Bob Meucci working with Paul Heubler at that time? I spoke to Paul some years back and he said something about it, he also did not have much to say about Bob that was positive, apparently Bob did something to his equipment when their relationship ended!!:cool:
 
C

ChampionsRepair

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classiccues said:
BTW you cannot separate Bob the cuemaker from Meucci cues, they are one and the same. Unless you can show me a Meucci cue made before Bob started his shop in 1975. In 20 plus years I have never seen one, been offered one, heard a myth of one, etc.. Again, rewriting history does take some proof, IMHO.

JV
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How can't you. If you don't, you are saying that a true custom hand signed by Bob is no different than a Meucci catalog production cue in fit, finish and materials. The only similarity is the name Meucci appearing on both examples.
 
classiccues

classiccues

Don't hashtag your broke friends
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ChampionsRepair said:
How can't you. If you don't, you are saying that a true custom hand signed by Bob is no different than a Meucci catalog production cue in fit, finish and materials. The only similarity is the name Meucci appearing on both examples.
Click to expand...

He, to the best of my knowledge, made a lot of the early production cues. If he made a custom after 1975, in his own shop, it's still a Meucci cue, right? I am asking for a pre-1975 cue to surface, NOT a shop cue. A custom one off Palmer from the Palmer shop is still a Palmer, not a Balner, or Jose the latheguy, or whatever, it's still a Palmer. Believe me, they made a lot of them.

So back to the original issue, I do believe if it is the truth, and proven, then it should absolutely be part of the written record.

JV
 
jayman

jayman

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cueman said:
I had a good talk with Bob Meucci at the Expo and asked him about his point blank business. He reconfirmed that Balabushka, Szamboti and Helmstetter all bought a lot of blanks from him. Here is the dates and history as best as memory would serve.
1971 he built wood veneer blanks for George and Gus.
1972 he built wood veneer blanks for them and others also.
1973 he built the so called "Wico blanks" that were made with seamless plastic veneers. I say so called, because he made them while he worked with Wico, but that was a side business of his and Wico was not involved in the the manufacturering.
So if you have a Bushka or Szamboti from 71 or 72 it is most likely not a Spain blank, but it is a Meucci blank. He said he always used maple veneers and Spain mostly used holly veneers. So if you can tell the difference in the maple and holly wood veneers you can tell whether it is a Spain or a Meucci blank. The Spain blanks would have a lighter colored white veneer instead of natural maple color. Most of the blanks were the black, orange, green and white.
Click to expand...

I would like to hear from Dickxan (Richard Helmstetter) about that. By 1970 Adam was in full swing and producing their own blanks, except for the very low level cues. So why would Richard be buying blanks a few years later from Bob? and what would he have done with "lots" of them?
It sound rather suspect to me because that doesn't really make sense.. Dickxan, you out there?
 
LGSM3

LGSM3

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no dog in this hunt, but its funny that the exact years in which bob specified are the years in which Burton was on his vacation from cuemaking.
 
hangemhigh

hangemhigh

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LGSM3 said:
no dog in this hunt, but its funny that the exact years in which bob specified are the years in which Burton was on his vacation from cuemaking.
Click to expand...

The same time frame in which John Davis took over from Burton, supplying George.
 
cuesblues

cuesblues

cue accumulator
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Some of the pre-Meucci Meucci's, called Slade, made here in Denver actually did resemble a Balabushka.
Bob Meucci, Clay Etheridge, Terry McFadden, and someone else I can't remember that was well known.
In fact one of the "unknown" cues at the Kellerman auction was a Slade cue and several people thought it was a Balabushka.
I had a lot of phone calls about it, and since I know the original owner of the cue I knew what it was.
I have a friend that ordered a Slade cue in the 60's.
The first time I saw his cue I thought they copied Balabushka.
Terrific cues
 
cueman

cueman

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classiccues said:
Chris,
The proof is not to disprove him, it's the other way around. It's not bash Meucci at all. I have never read anywhere except here and on the ICA site about him supplying George and Gus. We have paper trails and proof on every other facet of blank making. You can contact Balner, and know he said he BOUGHT them from Gus and Spain. We know there is well documented proof that Burton supplied them to George and Palmer. We know Burton started the idea of the WICO point and gave up on it THEN Bob took it over, THEN Gordon Hart. The fact is there is a paper trail, and it's also in Burtons memoirs.

Believe me, if it's what happened, it's better to be on the right side of history. You would think after 3 editions of the Blue Book and 3 editions of the BE, that something would have come up. I am not saying yes or no, I am saying there has to be a record, or other collaborators. You mention you are talking to someone that "was" there, well it's awfully convienent that the other two aren't.

This is like me saying I made blanks for Bushka, disprove it. It doesn't work that way. You and I both know that.

BTW you cannot separate Bob the cuemaker from Meucci cues, they are one and the same. Unless you can show me a Meucci cue made before Bob started his shop in 1975. In 20 plus years I have never seen one, been offered one, heard a myth of one, etc.. Again, rewriting history does take some proof, IMHO.
JV
Click to expand...

This is funny. Now you don't even believe he set up Huebler before setting up his own shop, or built cues in Chicago. I have restored what was believed to be an old Meucci BCM cue from before 1975. It had a piloted joint and sealed wrap. I also asked Bob how his early cues were made. Guess what? He told me that they all had piloted joints, no signature and some had sealed wraps. Some of the same sources you say would have written about his blanks making do indeed write about his early cue making with National and such. So the proof of his early cues would be good enough. You seem well connected in the billiard world. Call Mr Helmstetter up and ask if he had Bob build him any blanks before he moved to Japan. If so that would prove Bob built blanks at the time you say he did not build them. Bob could be wrong on his years, but thinks he is pretty close on the years.
 
cueman

cueman

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LGSM3 said:
no dog in this hunt, but its funny that the exact years in which bob specified are the years in which Burton was on his vacation from cuemaking.
Click to expand...
Then Bob was off on years as he said Burton took his break when he showed him the first plastic veneer blanks. Maybe the time frame is a couple of years off. He was building the blanks for Helmstetter when Dick was with National if I remember right. Confirm the year National moved to GA and I think that would be the first or second year he was building blanks. Some of these dates do not agree in various publications.
 
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