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05-19-2011, 06:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Winston846 View Post
FWIW, I don't think Mosconi would have run 526 on a Diamond Pro. The known high is Bobby Chamberlain's 311 - and that's still over 200 short..
Win-man,
So you are saying if BC couldn't do it, then Willie couldn't??? First time I've ever heard that ranking (just kidding, I know you are not "ranking").

If BC can run 311 on a Diamond, then Willie could run 622 at least (no offense to BC, but Willie was THE ELITE PLAYER OF ALL TIME!!!!). JMO. Willie had zero interest in high runs. If someone put up a lot of cash for them, there is no doubt he would have eclipsed every other player's high run.
  
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05-19-2011, 06:44 AM

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Originally Posted by Williebetmore View Post
Win-man,
So you are saying if BC couldn't do it, then Willie couldn't??? First time I've ever heard that ranking (just kidding, I know you are not "ranking").

If BC can run 311 on a Diamond, then Willie could run 622 at least (no offense to BC, but Willie was THE ELITE PLAYER OF ALL TIME!!!!). JMO. Willie had zero interest in high runs. If someone put up a lot of cash for them, there is no doubt he would have eclipsed every other player's high run.
Willie,

I do have to agree with one thing. I've read accounts that said when Mosconi pocketed balls, they were all dead center - no rattling the sides. If you're pocketing dead center, the width and cut shouldn't matter. So maybe he could have done it. Who knows?

Edit: Irving Crane was the same way. I wonder what his high run would have been had he cared about putting up a big number.


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05-19-2011, 06:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Mark Griffin View Post
Harriman did a run of 199-for a total of 313 in 4.

Wow!!!

Mark griffin
I heard he scratched on 200. He beat Darren's 183 on a Diamond at Derby earlier this year.

Got to be the highest video'd run on a Diamond in competition. (JS has a 294 video'd but it is not in competition)

Are you going to release the videos? I hear these are being recorded. How about the final 8 Round Robin. Is anyone going to record any of that? Could be some good stuff.
  
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526 - 05-19-2011, 06:55 AM

Mosconi could've run 526 on a 4.5' x 9' Diamond Pro Am if there was something in it for him. The man was a full blown maniac when he put his mind to doing something on the table. That's how competitive he was. If anyone offered 5 figures for a new world run record (greater than his 526) he would've killed himself until he beat it. And not just simply to get the cash - but also because he wouldn't want anyone else to have it. When it came to pool Willie was like Tyson in the ring (but only slightly more civilized). He could not stand less than perfection and he had no way of dealing with failure. The only way, in Willie's life, was working hard at it until you succeeded.

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526 - 05-19-2011, 08:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron F View Post
Mosconi could've run 526 on a 4.5' x 9' Diamond Pro Am if there was something in it for him. The man was a full blown maniac when he put his mind to doing something on the table. That's how competitive he was. If anyone offered 5 figures for a new world run record (greater than his 526) he would've killed himself until he beat it. And not just simply to get the cash - but also because he wouldn't want anyone else to have it. When it came to pool Willie was like Tyson in the ring (but only slightly more civilized). He could not stand less than perfection and he had no way of dealing with failure. The only way, in Willie's life, was working hard at it until you succeeded.

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05-19-2011, 09:25 AM

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Originally Posted by Ron F View Post
Mosconi .... If anyone offered 5 figures for a new world run record (greater than his 526) he would've killed himself until he beat it. And not just simply to get the cash - but also because he wouldn't want anyone else to have it.Ron F
Ron,
Mark Wilson tells this story of Mosconi: Willie was asked how badly he wanted to win. He stated factually that, "If I was playing my mother, I would want to beat her 150 to negative 2."

Not 150 to zero, 150 to minus 2.

Though most of the champions I have met are extremely competitive and always want to win, only one pro player I've met had such similar fierce desire - Jeanette Lee. When I first matched up at straight pool with her, she asked if I wanted to practice or play. I recommended a friendly game with me receiving a large handicap. She said, "Okay, you know I am your friend, but if we're keeping score I'm going to have to rip your heart out." Really no smile along with this comment, no joke, just fact. Very intimidating.

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Yes - 05-20-2011, 06:42 AM

Thanks for the post, Willie. From reading Willie's Game, The Hustler & The Champ, news clippings, online articles, etc., over time you get a feel for how passionate Willie was for a.) playing pool better than any human being, ever, and b.) being competitive and winning at whatever he tried.

I read the quote you mentioned. He also took young Willie out to play golf and dressed him down because the kid's swing wasn't perfect. When Willie, jr, said they were only out on the course to have fun and enjoy themselves Willie lit into him about not ever doing something for fun. If you're going to do it you do it the right way or don't bother. The kid quit in the middle of the round because he wasn't having any fun bc of the old man.

Or about the time during the match at the Waldorf Astoria between Fatty and Superstroke with Wille and Cosell commentating. Camera breaks>Fatty's asked to entertain the crowd>spectator asks Fats if he ever beat Mosconi> Fats partially ducks by saying I played them all and I beat them all. Willie, 62 years old, in a tux, auditorium full of spectators, hired as just a commentator - ABSOLUTELY FREAKS OUT. Sprints over to get in Fatty's face, cords standing up in his neck, spittle flying everywhere as he calls Fats a BUM who never beat ANYONE. He wanted to play Fats IMMEDIATELY to shut him up. The man could not play at 50%, 75% or 90%. It was balls to the wall, all out warfare whenever he picked up a cue for a match. They don't make them like that anymore. I think they only made one and that was it actually.

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05-20-2011, 07:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron F View Post
Or about the time during the match at the Waldorf Astoria between Fatty and Superstroke with Wille and Cosell commentating. Camera breaks>Fatty's asked to entertain the crowd>spectator asks Fats if he ever beat Mosconi> Fats partially ducks by saying I played them all and I beat them all. Willie, 62 years old, in a tux, auditorium full of spectators, hired as just a commentator - ABSOLUTELY FREAKS OUT. Sprints over to get in Fatty's face, cords standing up in his neck, spittle flying everywhere as he calls Fats a BUM who never beat ANYONE. He wanted to play Fats IMMEDIATELY to shut him up. The man could not play at 50%, 75% or 90%. It was balls to the wall, all out warfare whenever he picked up a cue for a match. They don't make them like that anymore. I think they only made one and that was it actually.

Ron F
In Fatty's defense, he was not a 14.1 player. Fatty's games were banks and 1-pocket, and he played those very respectably.

And not knocking Willie, but why did he avoid Johnston City like the plague?


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05-20-2011, 08:26 AM

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Originally Posted by Winston846 View Post

And not knocking Willie, but why did he avoid Johnston City like the plague?
I'm pretty sure that had a lot to do with Willie's deal with Brunswick. IMO, they sort of kept him in a corner looking nice while the other players fought it out on the money tables. I think it was a shame that he didn't play in those events, but it's a good bet that nobody missed Willie at Johnson City.


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Fats?
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Fats? - 05-20-2011, 08:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston846 View Post
In Fatty's defense, he was not a 14.1 player. Fatty's games were banks and 1-pocket, and he played those very respectably.

And not knocking Willie, but why did he avoid Johnston City like the plague?
We've been talking about Willie and his passion for the game and whether he'd be able to run 526 on a Diamond Pro Am for the last 8 posts. What are you talking about?

Ron F


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Yes - 05-20-2011, 08:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Blackjack View Post
I'm pretty sure that had a lot to do with Willie's deal with Brunswick. IMO, they sort of kept him in a corner looking nice while the other players fought it out on the money tables. I think it was a shame that he didn't play in those events, but it's a good bet that nobody missed Willie at Johnson City.
I agree David. But even if Brunswick wouldn't have frowned on Mosconi's participation at Johnston City, it's unlikely that Willie would have gone. Two main reasons - those tournaments weren't sanctioned so their champions wasn't recognized and he had nothing but contempt and pure bile for the money players that played in those tournaments. Probably was best that he didn't go because if he did he would've gotten into fist fights every day. He really did have a hatred for them that the only thing comparable I could think of is deep south racism during the 50's.

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What??
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What?? - 05-20-2011, 08:56 AM

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Originally Posted by Winston846 View Post
In Fatty's defense, he was not a 14.1 player. Fatty's games were banks and 1-pocket, and he played those very respectably.

And not knocking Willie, but why did he avoid Johnston City like the plague?
Just re-read this again. If you have Fats in the same league as Willie in any game you have no idea how good Willie was or how much of Fat's game was bullshit. He was an attraction and he was the very best at making a spectacle of himself. Against a world champion, any world champion, he'd never survive. He made it into the hall of fame because of his acting ability, not even close for his pool shooting skills in any game.

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Friends - 05-20-2011, 09:45 AM

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Just re-read this again. If you have Fats in the same league as Willie in any game you have no idea how good Willie was or how much of Fat's game was bullshit. He was an attraction and he was the very best at making a spectacle of himself. Against a world champion, any world champion, he'd never survive. He made it into the hall of fame because of his acting ability, not even close for his pool shooting skills in any game.

Ron F

Winston & Ron, I really like the both of you. I hate to get in the middle but I do agree with everything Ron has written. I do think that Fats was very good at Banks but I have no proof. I do not know if there is any proof recorded.
My mentor Leroy Kinman who he and his wife were very close friends of Willie & his wife (always stayed at each other's houses etc.) Has told me numerous times that Willie hated "Road Players". Roy told me that Willie would only gamble with them to run them out of town. He would take all their money and leave them enough to catch a bus.
Roy also hates Fats. Even now as old as Roy is (82) he goes nuts when someone mentions Fats. Roy even showed me a letter that he had written to the Hall of Fame stating that it was a disgrace for inducting Fats. Their answer was: that Fats was a great showmen and did lots for pool. I do believe that is correct. When, I was a kid in the 60's there always was lot of talk about Fats and he had his own weekly TV show that I remember watching all the time.
Anyways, that is what this Forum is all about: good healthy discussions.
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And...
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And... - 05-20-2011, 11:18 AM

Also, if Fats was the gambling, hustling road player, why did he only show up
for 1 Johnston City tournament. the very 1st one?


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05-20-2011, 11:33 AM

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Originally Posted by 14-1StraightMan View Post
Winston & Ron, I really like the both of you. I hate to get in the middle but I do agree with everything Ron has written. I do think that Fats was very good at Banks but I have no proof. I do not know if there is any proof recorded.
My mentor Leroy Kinman who he and his wife were very close friends of Willie & his wife (always stayed at each other's houses etc.) Has told me numerous times that Willie hated "Road Players". Roy told me that Willie would only gamble with them to run them out of town. He would take all their money and leave them enough to catch a bus.
Roy also hates Fats. Even now as old as Roy is (82) he goes nuts when someone mentions Fats. Roy even showed me a letter that he had written to the Hall of Fame stating that it was a disgrace for inducting Fats. Their answer was: that Fats was a great showmen and did lots for pool. I do believe that is correct. When, I was a kid in the 60's there always was lot of talk about Fats and he had his own weekly TV show that I remember watching all the time.
Anyways, that is what this Forum is all about: good healthy discussions.
It is ten times better then when it was dead for a few months a while back and no one was writing.
That's OK, Mike. We've known each other since 8th grade and get into it like this all the time. As for Fats' banking ability, just watch the old ESPN telecast where he plays (and beats) Mosconi in the 7-ball portion of the competition. Fats was left down-table on the 7 and had to cut a cross-corner bank to make it on his side of the table. Allen Hopkins was commenting on how good of a bank and one pocket player Fats was and said he would probably make that shot 7 out of 10 times - and sure enough, Fats fired it right in.

EDIT: I can't access YouTube from work, but I know the video of their matchup on ESPN is on there somewhere.


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