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Patrick Johnson
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07-08-2019, 06:27 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
I think a swipe or swoop does leave the tip on the ball longer because the cue stick isn't traveling straight but rather more around the circumference of the cb in reference to the line of the shot even though the tip is staying in one spot on the cue ball. It's rotating with the ball while it's still on it.
I think most people probably see it the way you do - it makes intuitive sense.

But I can't execute a swooping stroke as accurately as a straight one, so I hope I'm right that either kind can produce the same CB effect.

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07-09-2019, 08:16 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
"Through" vs. "across" are different directions of motion at contact.

Swooping vs. straight backhand English are not different directions of motion at contact.

pj
chgo
I agree, of course. Only different directions of motion can provide different cue ball actions, however, the swoop stroke yields a different direction of motion than the pivot stroke or "parallel" false english stroke (see my illustration below).

You've said you've had trouble executing a swoop, don't think of it as a diagonal stroke through Point X, rather, think of it as more of setting the whole cue to broom forward, while it has been turned a tiny increment diagonally through the bridge hand. Put another way, I think/feel like the backhand english stroke is a straight stroke.

Swooping efficiently combines the better parts of parallel and pivot technique.

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07-09-2019, 09:02 AM

I think that swooping does not accomplish anything that a straight stroke can't accomplish. It cannot achieve any special direction and spin. In my view it is a pointless complication and it is a mistake to teach it to students. I think the the only use is to make the student feel the instructor has "special secrets" that are worth paying extra for.


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07-09-2019, 11:28 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I think that swooping does not accomplish anything that a straight stroke can accomplish. It cannot achieve any special direction and spin. In my view it is a pointless complication and it is a mistake to teach it to students. I think the the only use is to make the student feel the instructor has "special secrets" that are worth paying extra for.
Then it's a good thing I just illustrated the technique and explained how to do it, so no one can say it's a secret technique. You can refer such hucksters to my diagram on this thread above.

Not every technique suits everyone's palate. But a lot of pros use a swoop, for some, not all, english strokes, and it can be quite effective.


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07-09-2019, 12:22 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I agree, of course. Only different directions of motion can provide different cue ball actions
Then the next question is - can the tip's speed and direction with a swoop stroke be duplicated using a straight stroke?

The answer is obviously yes - so why would you ever swoop?

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07-09-2019, 12:50 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Then the next question is - can the tip's speed and direction with a swoop stroke be duplicated using a straight stroke?

The answer is obviously yes - so why would you ever swoop?

pj
chgo
Go for it! Turn your cue slightly diagonal, now backstroke with the whole cue held diagonally in both hands, to preserve the angle, now come forward, getting the english you like. Give it a go! (I'm guessing you didn't and stroked with your mind, not testing the technique at a table.)

The problem, of course, is you are now punching into the globe, knocking it over, instead of slapping it obliquely, "riding the circumference" as was stated above--if you can execute the stroke you are requesting above, that is, turn the cue diagonal and bring the whole works back and through, while angled, instead of stroking in the direction the cue tip points!

Put another way, I'm comfortable shooting pivot (a diagonal stroke hand movement) or carabao (forward with a bit of deviation) but not brooming a diagonal cue stick with precision.

Or put another way, you're right, and many of the pros in the world are wrong--who have been backhanding for a century or so. I'll say that at the risk of invoking an ad populum fallacy.


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07-09-2019, 01:24 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
Go for it! Turn your cue slightly diagonal, now backstroke with the whole cue held diagonally in both hands, to preserve the angle, now come forward, getting the english you like.
This nonsense demonstrates that you don't know what I've said or how unrealistic your ideas are.

There are too many misconceptions in the rest of your post to bother responding. I hope nobody's paying you for this terrible advice.

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07-10-2019, 04:48 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
This nonsense demonstrates that you don't know what I've said or how unrealistic your ideas are.

There are too many misconceptions in the rest of your post to bother responding. I hope nobody's paying you for this terrible advice.

pj
chgo
What happened to "good people discussing things in the marketplace of ideas"? You didn't get my sarcasm:

"Turn your cue slightly diagonal, now backstroke with the whole cue held diagonally in both hands, to preserve the angle, now come forward, getting the english you like."
This cannot be done without ruining the fixed bridge hand on the table--I was demonstrating you are claiming to replace a simple swoop stroke that many pros use, for a very difficult stroke you have imagined--but clearly not yet attempted.

A great many pros use backhand/swoop for sidespin--using a long bridge and follow through, for example, the cue travels 20-plus inches from the bridge hand through follow through, but only a tip or two to the side, less than an inch--the net equivalent effect is that of a cue turned diagonal (pivot english) thrusting forward.

Engage with the material and tell me per physics and logic why you think I'm wrong. I don't mind learning from constructive criticism. You can at the same time tell me why hundreds of top players are using wrong techniques at the table--or not--but you will cease from insulting the good taste and high intelligence of my many students.


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07-10-2019, 10:46 AM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
You didn't get my sarcasm
No, you didn't get what "duplicate the tip's swoop stroke speed and direction with a straight stroke" means. It simply means angle your cue before stroking at the same angle the swooped tip is moving when it hits the CB and then stroke straight along the cue's axis as usual to hit the same CB spot at the same angle - you know, like squirt correction is normally done with a straight stroke.

This level of basic misunderstanding makes me wonder if we'll ever get past your misconceptions to have a chance at realistic conversation.

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07-10-2019, 01:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
No, you didn't get what "duplicate the tip's swoop stroke speed and direction with a straight stroke" means. It simply means angle your cue before stroking at the same angle the swooped tip is moving when it hits the CB and then stroke straight along the cue's axis as usual to hit the same CB spot at the same angle - you know, like squirt correction is normally done with a straight stroke.

This level of basic misunderstanding makes me wonder if we'll ever get past your misconceptions to have a chance at realistic conversation.

pj
chgo
A swoop is an umbrella handle shaped stroke or candy cane shaped stroke (begin along center cue ball line, deviate near impact) so why should a straight stroke/straight line motion, along a different approach and follow through line, yield "the same effect"?

It's a fine difference, but if you visualize each stroke in full motion (your fourth stroke, not pivoted, parallel or swooped, but turned to offset then stroked straight back and through as you've described) and also the swoop stroke, you may see how the swoop compresses the tip through impact rather neatly to "ride the circumference" as aptly described above, and the offset cue doesn't do as well but difflects/squirts more--they are different angles of incidence. The string around the yo-yo pulls along a curve to really spin that yo-yo better than a straight strike can. You are also a strong player, weaker players aren't too keen on stroking the offset cue stick, especially at more than a tip of sidespin. I've demonstrated a swoop before to clinic groups and they all pick it up in just a few tries or even the first try, finding more confidence on those rare shots that need much english.

If the cb is far from the ob, you can see a good backhand shot maintain a lot of sidespin on the cue ball! That's one reason the pros use it. Also, if you want to use it at the tables and experiment, you may grow to like the stroke more if you think of pronating or supinating the wrist from the elbow, that is, rotating the stroke hand, rather than pulling the cue laterally for the same sideways deviation during the swoop move.

PS. As I think about it, I've avoided teaching offset for a long time, but some like it, I will revise my diagram tomorrow sometime. Thanks and sorry for the confusion.


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07-10-2019, 03:00 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I agree, of course. Only different directions of motion can provide different cue ball actions, however, the swoop stroke yields a different direction of motion than the pivot stroke or "parallel" false english stroke (see my illustration below).

You've said you've had trouble executing a swoop, don't think of it as a diagonal stroke through Point X, rather, think of it as more of setting the whole cue to broom forward, while it has been turned a tiny increment diagonally through the bridge hand. Put another way, I think/feel like the backhand english stroke is a straight stroke.

Swooping efficiently combines the better parts of parallel and pivot technique.

Attachment 524298
I'm looking at the diagram and I'm sorry but the 2 CB's to the right are identical as to the angle of the shaft and tip contact point on the CB. You're saying they're different somehow???
And what about the one farthest to the right, why is the follow thru coming out way to the left whereas the other 2 go straight thru. Is that possibly accomplished by using a figure 8 stroke? I've heard of that stroke but I've never actually seen anyone do it.
Another thing I'm curious about is why you say parallel english is false english. What's the deal with that?

Back/front, parallel, swooping or whatever; the type and/or amount of english is governed by tip contact point, levelness of cue and quality of delivery into the CB.

One thing I'll say about swooping is that there are a lot of people who do it because they grew up with it and are comfortable with it.
However, I would not recommend it for 2 specific reasons.
One is that it has a tendency to promote wrist twisting which most would agree is bad.
Another is that, once mastered, it works fine (most of the time) as long as you're playing a lot and are in good stroke. But if you're not playing much you'll have difficulty by getting either too much or not enough english and miss shots because of that.
  
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07-10-2019, 03:03 PM

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... But a lot of pros use a swoop ...
Who specifically?


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07-10-2019, 03:31 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
...the swoop compresses the tip through impact rather neatly to "ride the circumference" as aptly described above, and the offset cue doesn't do as well but difflects/squirts more--they are different angles of incidence.
This is an understandable (and not uncommon) misperception, but not one an instructor should have or teach.

Since a straight stroke can be aimed at whatever angle the shooter desires, there's no reason for there to be different angles of incidence. And, as you've already agreed, if the tips strike the CB on the same spot at the same angle and speed there can be no difference in effect.

And, by the way, this isn't hard to test - do this simple spin test stroking both ways and see if one or the other produces more spin effect:

1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.


pj
chgo

P.S. I predict one outcome will be a higher percentage of "legal" shots (#5) with straight strokes.

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07-11-2019, 05:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Who specifically?
On a random basis, look at ten YouTube pros in competition, serious play, not trick shots. See who cues and takes practice strokes along the vertical axis before the cue ball action exhibits english. How are they getting this english?

That style is easy to see--and we both know pros will cue then strike elsewhere along the vertical axis for top/bottom spin, let alone english--but to avoid arguing about hard-to-see minutiae, the last two people I discussed this with in person were Dom Esposito (The Drill Instructor) and Tom Kennedy. They both can describe, even with a pre-offset cue as PJ describes, working not for a purely straight stroke but a curvy backstroke and forward stroke move, that is, at the end of the final backstroke they have returned to center cue ball aim, than reach out to "flick" english coming forward.


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07-11-2019, 05:53 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
This is an understandable (and not uncommon) misperception, but not one an instructor should have or teach.

Since a straight stroke can be aimed at whatever angle the shooter desires, there's no reason for there to be different angles of incidence. And, as you've already agreed, if the tips strike the CB on the same spot at the same angle and speed there can be no difference in effect.

And, by the way, this isn't hard to test - do this simple spin test stroking both ways and see if one or the other produces more spin effect:

1. Use a striped ball as your "CB" with the stripe vertical and facing you.

2. Hit the ball on the edge of the stripe (maximum side spin), aiming it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target, like a piece of chalk, on the far rail to easily see if you're hitting straight across.

3. Hit it just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the edge of the stripe.

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the edge of the stripe, or (3) the speed is different.


pj
chgo

P.S. I predict one outcome will be a higher percentage of "legal" shots (#5) with straight strokes.
I agree with you 100% regarding the efficacy, reliability and dependability of straight strokes.

However, aiming center cue ball than applying english only with the final forward stroke is one of a number of pool strokes where the stroke hand can describe a curve in space, not a linear motion. Aiming center ball, then backstroking along that ccb line, than forward stroking and sometime during the forward stroke moving off line, provides a curved arc into and through impact.

I'm not trying to break your chops--a lot of backhand english is a rare shot to take--we might as well argue vertical massť technique, but a few years ago I got frustrated reading "every pool stroke is a straight stroke" in multiple books and articles online.


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