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jtompilot
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08-28-2019, 04:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CESSNA10 View Post
corners are 5 1/8th and sides are 5 3/4
Dear Cessna, you will never get a shimmed pocket to play like a properly extended rail, I don’t care what some table hack has to say. That doesn’t mean that your table shimmed to 4.5” won’t be good for you to play on at home. It’s just that any ball that hits the shim won’t react the same as rail rubber.
  
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08-28-2019, 05:28 AM

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Originally Posted by jtompilot View Post
Dear Cessna, you will never get a shimmed pocket to play like a properly extended rail, I don’t care what some table hack has to say. That doesn’t mean that your table shimmed to 4.5” won’t be good for you to play on at home. It’s just that any ball that hits the shim won’t react the same as rail rubber.
Yes, in other words, the pocket points themselves, if struck by a ball, play a bit inconsistent and unpredictable. Shots that are actually played into a pocket point will be guess work at best.
  
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mchnhed
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08-28-2019, 06:14 AM

Those measurements are Point to Point?

Here’s a video on measuring a pocket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG9CqK95U2E

BCA Equipment Specs (Yes, We Know Tour Specs Are Tighter)

POCKET OPENINGS & MEASUREMENTS (cloth-covered rails):

Pockets openings are measured from tip to tip of the opposing cushion noses where direction changes into the pocket. This is called the mouth.

Corner Pocket: Mouth 4 7/8” minimum to 5 1/8” maximum
Side Pocket: Mouth 5 3/8” minimum to 5 5/8” maximum

The angle at the corner pocket entrance on each side of the pocket is 142o (± 1o).
The angle at the side pocket entrance on each side of the pocket is 103o (± 2o).

Vertical Pocket Angle: 12o minimum to 15o maximum

Shelf: The shelf is measured from the center of the imaginary line that goes from one side of the mouth to the other where the nose of the cushion changes direction to the center of the vertical cut of the slate pocket radius.

Corner Pocket: 1 5/8” minimum to 1 7/8” maximum
Side Pocket: 0” minimum to 3/8” maximum

Drop Point Slate Radius: The pocket radius measured from the vertical cut of the slate to the playing surface.

Drop Point Slate Radius: 1/8” radius minimum to 1⁄4” radius minimum


WPA Tour Specs

Corner Pocket Mouth: between 4.5 [11.43 cm] and 4.625 inches [11.75 cm]

Side Pocket Mouth: between 5 [12.7 cm] and 5.125 inches [13.0175 cm]

*The mouth of the side pocket is traditionally ½ inch [1.27 cm] wider than
the mouth of the corner pocket."
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Last edited by mchnhed; 08-28-2019 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Added Image of Pocket Dimensions
  
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08-28-2019, 06:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtompilot View Post
Dear Cessna, you will never get a shimmed pocket to play like a properly extended rail, I don’t care what some table hack has to say.
I never said it would play the same.
In fact if you read my reply I state that having the Cushion Points in the proper place after a rail extension is the “correct” way.

I also said that “stacking” shims is wrong, because the two pieces are not Mechanically Connected, causing loss of energy, making a pocket play dead.

Using a thicker, single piece of the same Duro Number neoprene shim material should give you more “acceptable” results, then stacking.


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Last edited by mchnhed; 08-28-2019 at 07:12 AM.
  
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08-28-2019, 07:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchnhed View Post
I am not saying to “stack” the shims.
I feel that stacking does not work because there is no mechanical connection between the two shims and energy is lost.

I am speculating that if I double/triple the thickness of the shim, but use one piece....

A: Leave the Duro at “60”. Should be same rebound?
B: Change the Duro to a Harder/Softer Duro to compensate?

You could setup a “drop test” to measure the rebound using.....
A: Standard Thickness Shim, 60 Duro
B: Double Thickness, 60 Duro
C: Triple Thickness, 60 Duro

I would think all should rebound the same?

If the rebound is not the same then you could measure the adjustment/compensation by using a softer/harder piece of shim with a different Duro number.

Example: 20% less rebound, then use a 20% harder piece.

Again....I think you should get the same rebound effect from all thickness’s of the material using the same Duro Number.

BTW....some very respected Mechanics on here advocate using Duro 50 for their shim material.

I acknowledge that using thicker shims is not the true correct way, because extended rails and cushions have the tips of the cushions in the correct place in the pocket, effecting play at the entrance to the pocket.
I give up. Try it out on your table and report back the results.


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08-28-2019, 07:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CESSNA10 View Post
corners are 5 1/8th and sides are 5 3/4
To get the table to 4.5" pockets means you are going to have to account for a 5/8" gap (5/16" on each side of the pocket). I don't care if you stack facings or use a one piece 5/16" facing, the table is going to play like crap around the pockets. Neoprene is a different material than the cushion so regardless of what duro facing is used to close the gap, it will not play good at all. Rather than waste the time and money on a snake oil fix, it is recommended to do it right or live with the buckets.


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08-28-2019, 07:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexus31 View Post
To get the table to 4.5" pockets means you are going to have to account for a 5/8" gap (5/16" on each side of the pocket). I don't care if you stack facings or use a one piece 5/16" facing, the table is going to play like crap around the pockets. Neoprene is a different material than the cushion so regardless of what duro facing is used to close the gap, it will not play good at all. Rather than waste the time and money on a snake oil fix, it is recommended to do it right or live with the buckets.
I give up!....

Read the reply, again.

I never said it would play the same!

BTW...there is some shim material at the end of all rails, so according to you it should not play good at all.

Your math is off....you forgot to figure in the thickness of the original shims.

What thickness is a “standard” shim?


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Last edited by mchnhed; 08-28-2019 at 07:42 AM.
  
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08-28-2019, 07:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexus31 View Post
I give up. Try it out on your table and report back the results.
I've done it. It works fine. In fact, I absolutely agree with the use of thicker facings, as opposed to stacking thinner ones.

Sometimes, a customer cannot afford, or simply does not want to pay, to have the sub-rails extended. In some rare cases, I have actually installed 3/8" thick 50A neoprene facing material.

Of course, it does not play exactly as a properly extended sub-rail plays. But, it isn't nearly as bad as some of you guys would like to suggest. How many have you have actually played on a table that was done in this way?

This table had fairly new cushions, when the new owner purchased it. Rather than spend the additional money on getting the table 'perfect', he opted to spend a fraction, to get the table playable (with the pocket specs that he wanted). When he is ready for new cloth, we will discuss whether he wants to make the investment in extending the sub-rails and replacing the cushions.



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08-28-2019, 07:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchnhed View Post
I give up!....

Read the reply, again.

I never said it would play the same!

BTW...there is some shim material at the end of all rails, so according to you it should not play good at all.

What thickness is a “standard” shim?
As I've stated NUMEROUS times. The facings are there for a purpose and that purpose it not to tighten the pockets.


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08-28-2019, 07:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexus31 View Post
As I've stated NUMEROUS times. The facings are there for a purpose and that purpose it not to tighten the pockets.
And, what is that purpose?
What is the standard thickness?
What is the standard Duro? 50 or 60.


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08-28-2019, 07:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradsh98 View Post
I've done it. It works fine. In fact, I absolutely agree with the use of thicker facings, as opposed to stacking thinner ones.

Sometimes, a customer cannot afford, or simply does not want to pay, to have the sub-rails extended. In some rare cases, I have actually installed 3/8" thick 50A neoprene facing material.

Of course, it does not play exactly as a properly extended sub-rail plays. But, it isn't nearly as bad as some of you guys would like to suggest. How many have you have actually played on a table that was done in this way?

This table had fairly new cushions, when the new owner purchased it. Rather than spend the additional money on getting the table 'perfect', he opted to spend a fraction, to get the table playable (with the pocket specs that he wanted). When he is ready for new cloth, we will discuss whether he wants to make the investment in extending the sub-rails and replacing the cushions.

Geoff, I'm glad it worked out for you and your customer. Yes, I have played on a table with thick facings installed in an effort to tighten the pockets and my experience was terrible. It simply does not play right; balls that hit the facing material where a cushion should be die and do not rebound as they should. This is most noticeable at the side pockets. Personal preference would be to do the job properly. I suppose it is a option if someone is on a budget and they can live with the table not playing right so long as the customer's expectations are properly set.


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08-28-2019, 07:47 AM

Thank you Bradsh98 for your experienced insight on shimming a pocket to save money.


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08-28-2019, 07:48 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchnhed View Post
I never said it would play the same.
In fact if you read my reply I state that having the Cushion Points in the proper place after a rail extension is the “correct” way.

I also said that “stacking” shims is wrong, because the two pieces are not Mechanically Connected, causing loss of energy, making a pocket play dead.

Using a thicker, single piece of the same Duro Number neoprene shim material should give you more “acceptable” results, then stacking.


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I wasn’t specifically talking about you but this type of thread is decades old. I know you didn’t say it would play the same, but it’s more than just the points that will play poorly, it’s the whole length of shim that will play poorly. For the most part like I said it’s ok for rotation games but sucks for banks and 1P.

Last edited by jtompilot; 08-28-2019 at 07:54 AM.
  
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08-28-2019, 07:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexus31 View Post
Geoff, I'm glad it worked out for you and your customer. Yes, I have played on a table with thick facings installed in an effort to tighten the pockets and my experience was terrible. It simply does not play right; balls that hit the facing material where a cushion should be die and do not rebound as they should. This is most noticeable at the side pockets. Personal preference would be to do the job properly. I suppose it is a option if someone is on a budget and they can live with the table not playing right so long as the customer's expectations are properly set.
Again....the pockets probably had “stacked” shims.
Yes, stacked shims will play dead because the two pieces are not mechanically attached to each other.
Glue will not help because it itself absorbs energy.


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08-28-2019, 08:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchnhed View Post
And, what is that purpose?
What is the standard thickness?
What is the standard Duro? 50 or 60.
IMO, the purpose is to provide an end cap to protect the end of the cushion and an impact barrier to cover the end of the subrail. The neoprene is harder than the cushion yet softer than wood to provide some rebound to allow balls to be pocketed without spitting them out. Pocket angle is also a contributor to spitting balls out but that's a different thread.

Size depends on the application but I believe 3/16" to be the preferred thickness. They come in many sizes and since there is no regulation on this, I think it comes down to personal preference. I believe Diamond uses 3/16".

I've read on here multiple times the preferred hardness is Duro 60 and my mechanic (tablemechanic on AZB) uses Duro 60. Here again, no strict regulation so it comes down to preference.


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