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10-23-2019, 12:53 PM

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Originally Posted by bbb View Post
I think your second concept is geared more for street pool eight ball or one pocket
and not rotation games
Examples are an insurance ball when breaking up a cluster
And trying to stay above the balls when running balls in one pocket
I still think especially with limited time to practice working on improving your skill level
will get you farther in the long term picture
Even though you may have a few more losses along the way
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Yes, non rotational. 8 Ball or straight pool. 8 ball was what I had in mind.
This is kind of a vote for #1. Going for higher skill sets is what gives the most overall performance improvement.

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10-23-2019, 01:07 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
A mixture of both.

.
"A mixture of both" This is actually a vote for #2. The #1 instructors simply do not include the concept of alternates in training.

I am a Tor Lowry Patreon. He is a #1 trainer. Every week he posts a table with some issues and everyone has to pick a specific pattern. You are looking for the easiest way to run them. You are supposed to pick all the balls and pockets then run it out. You take everything into consideration except any alternate shots. Here is Kia running a pattern with stripes. http://www.kiasidbury.com/post/zero-...-17-19-pattern If you watch you can see she is more figuring it out as she goes. I think that is how she ends up with her patterns. I think she shoots them first then writes them down. It is what I have to do. What seems like it will work can be a lot harder than it looks. And sometimes, when shooting, a new pattern emerges which I had not even considered.
  
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10-23-2019, 01:11 PM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
"A mixture of both" This is actually a vote for #2. The #1 instructors simply do not include the concept of alternates in training.

I am a Tor Lowry Patreon. He is a #1 trainer. Every week he posts a table with some issues and everyone has to pick a specific pattern. You are looking for the easiest way to run them. You are supposed to pick all the balls and pockets then run it out. You take everything into consideration except any alternate shots. Here is Kia running a pattern with stripes. http://www.kiasidbury.com/post/zero-...-17-19-pattern If you watch you can see she is more figuring it out as she goes. I think that is how she ends up with her patterns. I think she shoots them first then writes them down. It is what I have to do. What seems like it will work can be a lot harder than it looks. And sometimes, when shooting, a new pattern emerges which I had not even considered.
So tor advocates #1.... yes?
  
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10-23-2019, 01:18 PM

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Originally Posted by bbb View Post
So tor advocates #1.... yes?
Yes, very strictly. He does a drill almost every instructor uses where you scatter balls then shoot them in in rotation. Every instructor has slightly different rules. Jerry Briesath says you have to have an easy shot and good position, no hard shots or it is considered a miss. Jerry doesn't care how you do it or how many times you may change your mind. He is interested in your ability to run out. You can shoot all the either or options you want so long as you end up with an easy shot and good position.

Tor says you have to not only shoot them in rotation, you must pre-select all the pockets before shooting the first ball. You can't get off a little and shoot a ball into a different pocket, etc. You are not allowed to change your mind. You need to be precise. Tor mentions things like having an insurance ball or a plan B ball when he is demonstrating but not for practice.

I favor #1 for practice but play like #2. Lately I am practicing the #2 style more. I don't like shooting any shot that only has one chance for a positive outcome. I hate getting trapped along the end rail or so straight I can't get where I need to go and don't have another ball I can shoot instead. I am learning to see areas where I have gotten into trouble before and just shoot a different shot that offers more options instead. In non rotational games there are a lot of different ways to get the job done. But when I do drills I demand precision and the shot doesn't count if the cue ball doesn't end up in a circle or doesn't hit a specific spot on a rail or hit a cluster the way I plan. So I practice for precision but also look for options that don't require that precision because I understand I don't always get it.

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10-23-2019, 05:32 PM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
Yes, very strictly. He does a drill almost every instructor uses where you scatter balls then shoot them in in rotation. Every instructor has slightly different rules. Jerry Briesath says you have to have an easy shot and good position, no hard shots or it is considered a miss. Jerry doesn't care how you do it or how many times you may change your mind. He is interested in your ability to run out. You can shoot all the either or options you want so long as you end up with an easy shot and good position.

Tor says you have to not only shoot them in rotation, you must pre-select all the pockets before shooting the first ball. You can't get off a little and shoot a ball into a different pocket, etc. You are not allowed to change your mind. You need to be precise. Tor mentions things like having an insurance ball or a plan B ball when he is demonstrating but not for practice.

I favor #1 for practice but play like #2. Lately I am practicing the #2 style more. I don't like shooting any shot that only has one chance for a positive outcome. I hate getting trapped along the end rail or so straight I can't get where I need to go and don't have another ball I can shoot instead. I am learning to see areas where I have gotten into trouble before and just shoot a different shot that offers more options instead. In non rotational games there are a lot of different ways to get the job done. But when I do drills I demand precision and the shot doesn't count if the cue ball doesn't end up in a circle or doesn't hit a specific spot on a rail or hit a cluster the way I plan. So I practice for precision but also look for options that don't require that precision because I understand I don't always get it.
i think you are progressing terrifically...
seeing a shot that has options then trying to play perfect position for plan A
with plan b/c available is a great skill to develop
thats option
1 1/2.....
  
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10-23-2019, 08:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I think it's best to do both on every shot: choose a "position zone" that has maximum room for error, and then aim for the precise spot in that zone that gives the most options.

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10-24-2019, 05:07 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
It's more common than you think (in bold). Seriously.

I have been a witness to these types of players for many many years. Maybe in a big city where there are several instructors and thousands of pool players you just don't get to see it. But go to ANY small town where there are zero poolhalls and zero instructors within a 2 hour drive. The kind of place where nobody knows what a Diamond table is, like a WV or KY or PA coal mining town, where all there is to do is drink beer and play pool at the only bar in town. Here you will find a player that consistently pockets rediculous shots due to years of playing 8ball on Valley barboxes. He is a great shot maker because that's how he learned, by firing at every shot he gets, regardless of difficulty, and he's had years to perfect it. Position play takes a back seat, because he knows as long as he can see the ob he can make the shot.
That's not my definition of a great shot-maker. A great shot-maker may make the wrong position choice but they make a position choice and they pocket the ball based on that choice. Once you begin to develop the skills to consistently pocket balls, it's only natural to think about setting up for the next shot. The player has to be able to pocket the ball with spin in order to be a great shot-maker.

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10-24-2019, 08:55 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
That's not my definition of a great shot-maker. A great shot-maker may make the wrong position choice but they make a position choice and they pocket the ball based on that choice. Once you begin to develop the skills to consistently pocket balls, it's only natural to think about setting up for the next shot. The player has to be able to pocket the ball with spin in order to be a great shot-maker.
I guess it's a matter of definition then. I consider a great shot maker someone that can pocket a wide variety of difficult shots with remarkable consistency. CB spin and position play have little to do with this core skill of just pocketing balls. Many weekend bar room players have superb ball pocketing skills and minimal if any position playing skills.

Keep in mind that I am not talking about poolhall players that practice and watch youtube clips and take lessons, etc.... I'm talking about weekend warriors that have no poolhalls. They don't subscribe to Billiards Digest, couldn't name 1 pro player if you offered them a prize to do so, and they certainly don't participate in AZB forums. But they've spent years and years worth of Friday and Saturday nights shooting every shot they were confronted with, developing an uncanny ability to pocket balls, despite position play. It's habitual. In order for a player like this to incorporate position play into their game, it would take a couple of months to break the habit of shooting at anything regardless of position. As Bob described with a student he had once, that habit isn't so easy to break.

But I have seen improvement with a couple of shot makers who began paying more attention to position and cb control. They miss more shots now because they are learning to move the cb around, which means they're using spin, and that's not something they've spent years developing. But they win more because they aren't blindly selling out by going for foolish shots that leave no reward.


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10-25-2019, 05:35 AM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
I guess it's a matter of definition then. I consider a great shot maker someone that can pocket a wide variety of difficult shots with remarkable consistency. CB spin and position play have little to do with this core skill of just pocketing balls. Many weekend bar room players have remarkable ball pocketing skills and minimal if any position playing skills.

Keep in mind that I am not talking about poolhall players that practice and watch youtube clips and take lessons, etc.... I'm talking about weekend warriors that have no poolhalls. They don't subscribe to Billiards Digest, couldn't name 1 pro player if you offered them a prize to do so, and they certainly don't participate in AZB forums. But they've spent years and years worth of Friday and Saturday nights shooting every shot they were confronted with, developing an uncanny ability to pocket balls, despite position play. It's habitual. In order for a player like this to incorporate position play into their game, it would take a couple of months to break the habit of shooting at anything regardless of position. As Bob described with a student he had once, that habit isn't so easy to break.

But I have seen improvement with a couple of shot makers who began paying more attention to position and cb control. They miss more shots now because they are learning to move the cb around, which means they're using spin, and that's not something they've spent years developing. But they win more because they aren't blindly selling out by going for foolish shots that leave no reward.
When I played 40 years ago I was not exposed to any professional training. I backed pool players in money games and new some very good players. But they would give me a tip here and there and a lot of what they believed is today understood to me incorrect. This new world of video instruction and technical analysis is very useful. It may have existed in books when I played but I never heard of them or read one.

We believed all kinds of things to be true. One I remember was "being in stroke". We would bet money on the belief a certain player was a great player but had not been playing on bar tables and was not "in stroke" on them so another player could beat them who would not normally be able to. "In Stroke" was like a month long concept, not a matter of a few hours of play. I backed a local player against the current world champion snooker player and he quit us. There was some truth in it. My guy said "he can't beat me playing 9 ball on a bar table with the big cue ball". It turned out to be right, at least it was that night.
  
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10-25-2019, 05:50 AM

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.... I backed a local player against the current world champion snooker player and he quit us. ....
I'm curious about who that would have been. I'm guessing it was Cliff Thorburn.


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10-25-2019, 06:10 AM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I'm curious about who that would have been. I'm guessing it was Cliff Thorburn.
I am 72 and was about 24-25 at the time, so I guess it was about 47-48 years ago. My player was "Little Oscar". He recognized the player and said "Do you know who that is?" I said "no". He told me and said he was the current World Champion Snooker Player. I said "goodbye Oscar" and that is when he said "No, he can't beat me on a bar table playing 9 ball with the big cue ball".

I don't know if he mentioned the name or not. It wouldn't have meant anything to me. I had never watched any form of pool on tv and knew less than nothing about snooker. I wish I did know.

They played for $20 a game and we got stuck $200 and I wanted to quit. Oscar said "let me play him one on nerve" (where you can't pay off if you lose). I was against that but he insisted. Oscar won back to $0. They upped the bet to $40 and the same exact thing happened again. When we got back to $0 again the guy quit us. I gave Oscar $40 for coming down to the bar to play him and that is all I remember.

The best players in our area, at the time, were Wade Crane who was going by the name Billy Johnson and Ronnie Allen I didn't hear the name Wade Crane until 40 years later. All I knew about pool was what little I picked up from local hustlers but some of them were pretty good. They played "one shot shoot out" 9 ball. No safeties. They just pushed out and accepted or declined the shot. Different era. (Southern Calif)

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10-25-2019, 07:43 AM

1971 would have been John Spencer
1972 Alex Higgins
1973-1976 Ray Reardon
1977 would have been Cliff Thorburn
Thanks to Wikipedia, not like I would know. :-) And I can't say I would recognize his picture if I saw it.

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11-07-2019, 03:19 PM

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Originally Posted by skipbales View Post
"A mixture of both" This is actually a vote for #2. The #1 instructors simply do not include the concept of alternates in training.

I am a Tor Lowry Patreon. He is a #1 trainer. Every week he posts a table with some issues and everyone has to pick a specific pattern. You are looking for the easiest way to run them. You are supposed to pick all the balls and pockets then run it out. You take everything into consideration except any alternate shots. Here is Kia running a pattern with stripes. http://www.kiasidbury.com/post/zero-...-17-19-pattern If you watch you can see she is more figuring it out as she goes. I think that is how she ends up with her patterns. I think she shoots them first then writes them down. It is what I have to do. What seems like it will work can be a lot harder than it looks. And sometimes, when shooting, a new pattern emerges which I had not even considered.
Been watching a lot pro 8ball matches lately, and they are reminding me this thread.

There might be a few great instructors out there teaching that practice needs to be geared toward perfect position, never considering any alternate shots that rearrange the plan or sequence that you initially decided to play. But, honestly, I don't think that's being realistic, considering how some of the world's best players play patterns.

I believe if you're practicing full table runouts, not individual shot repetition or cb control, the most beneficial way to practice should match the reality of actually playing, competing. In a real match we seldom run the balls in the exact pattern we initially choose. I watch SVB, Shaw, Pagulayan, and other great players, and each play the game exactly as I do, exactly as countless others do. Of course, they make fewer mistakes, but what I'm talking about is pattern play. Any good player, after deciding how to run a group of balls, takes time after each shot to ensure the initial plan is still the best option.

Pattern play isn't set in stone. There is usually plenty of room for change, and sometimes a new pattern presents itself when you're looking at the table from a different perspective. On occasion, we see a pattern and run the rack very much in tune with that pattern. But anywhere along the way we could easily rearrange a shot or two if that looks like the best option at the time, based on our experience. So when practicing full rack strategy and pattern play, part of what you should be working on is recognizing opportunities that come up, opportunities that may lead to a new and improved pattern. If you practice tunnel vision style, then you'll play that way also.


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11-07-2019, 04:10 PM

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Originally Posted by BC21 View Post
Been watching a lot pro 8ball matches lately, and they are reminding me this thread.

There might be a few great instructors out there teaching that practice needs to be geared toward perfect position, never considering any alternate shots that rearrange the plan or sequence that you initially decided to play. But, honestly, I don't think that's being realistic, considering how some of the world's best players play patterns.

I believe if you're practicing full table runouts, not individual shot repetition or cb control, the most beneficial way to practice should match the reality of actually playing, competing. In a real match we seldom run the balls in the exact pattern we initially choose. I watch SVB, Shaw, Pagulayan, and other great players, and each play the game exactly as I do, exactly as countless others do. Of course, they make fewer mistakes, but what I'm talking about is pattern play. Any good player, after deciding how to run a group of balls, takes time after each shot to ensure the initial plan is still the best option.

Pattern play isn't set in stone. There is usually plenty of room for change, and sometimes a new pattern presents itself when you're looking at the table from a different perspective. On occasion, we see a pattern and run the rack very much in tune with that pattern. But anywhere along the way we could easily rearrange a shot or two if that looks like the best option at the time, based on our experience. So when practicing full rack strategy and pattern play, part of what you should be working on is recognizing opportunities that come up, opportunities that may lead to a new and improved pattern. If you practice tunnel vision style, then you'll play that way also.
This is exactly how I see it. I think practice for perfect but accept that no one always gets there and be prepared for alternatives. In play I look for alternatives as part of my initial pattern. I look for patterns that present options.
  
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11-07-2019, 05:12 PM

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This is exactly how I see it. I think practice for perfect but accept that no one always gets there and be prepared for alternatives. In play I look for alternatives as part of my initial pattern. I look for patterns that present options.
In practice you should also do what's in bold.


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