Effective practice time.

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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I noticed a Facebook post where Jeremy Jones was talking about practice.

He felt given the choice of a 5 hour session of practice or some 2 hour sessions, he felt more would be accomplished by playing the longer session.

I guess it's different for different people. Certainly what a pro level player calls "practice" though is probably not the same type of practice an aspiring B or C level player calls practice. Even a good A player will have a different practice regimen than a top level pro or any B or C player.

Over the last couple of decades, there have been quite a few great studies done on learning and development of skills and talents with regards to study/practice time. The research indicates that short practice/study sessions, focused on a specific goal, produce the best results for most people. This is because typically it's difficult to keep 100% focus for long periods of time. And when it comes to learning, or developing skills, quality of practice usually trumps quantity.

A good example is studying for a final exam.... You can spend 5 hours studying the day before the exam, or you can spend 30 minutes a couple of times a day over a period of 5 days leading to the exam. That 5 hour study session will seem good and strong, 100% focused, for some of that time, but not for all the time. The mind will wonder, distractions will creep in, thoughts that have nothing to do with what you are trying to study. So that5 hours may look and sound great, but the quality of actual study time isn't ideal.

With dedicated 30 to 40min sessions, however, you stand a better chance of remaining 100% focused on what you're doing for that entire time. It's quality time. And you might find an hour or 2 is all quality for you, when others might do better with shorter time periods.

The same study habits have shown to be effective in developing skills in sports. Practice is more useful if you are 100% dedicated/focused on the task. If you feel yourself slipping into boredom, or losing focus, take a break. Go eat, watch tv, read a book, whatever.... The worse thing you can do is beat in the time, nonchalantly, simply because you told yourself you were going to practice for 2 hours, or 5 hours, or whatever predefined time limit you chose. If the quality of practice drops, it's time to quit, take a break and come back to it later when you can give 100%.
 
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BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For most players they do benefit from some practice. The problem is too many people forgo competition thinking they can practice their way to perfection or greatness.

Is that really the problem? In my experience, the vast majority of pool players only play and never practice. And the ones who do practice, “practice” by throwing balls out and half-heartedly whacking them in pockets. How often do we hear that the only way to get better is to gamble? It sure seems like the majority of advice when the question of improvement comes up here on AZ.

There’s the famous 10,000 hour rule that Gladwell wrote about in his book and often gets cited here. It’s based on a paper by Anders Ericsson who found that top musicians practiced alone for about 10,000 hours throughout their childhood to become professional violinists and pianists by the time they became adults. But the focus of that study was not only on the amount of time, but also on the type of practice, what’s called “deliberate practice,” where the key is that you’re not performing, you’re practicing scales and new techniques that you’re not good at, and mastering them. In pool, that would maybe translate to practicing shots that you can’t make, and doing it over and over.

That’s music, which is different from pool, but if you look at high-paid professional or Olympic sports, I don’t think any top coach would ever say “just get out there and play” and that would be the majority of their training. The vast majority of their time is spent isolating techniques or muscles or skills, and working on those for hours every day.

Probably very few pool players, if any, has ever done what the average Olympic athlete or golfer or other high-paid professional athlete does, because it’s just not that much fun and the money and glory isn’t there in pool. But I don’t know why pool would be any different from any other endeavor in requiring massive time spent on deliberate practice rather than “get out there and gamble.”
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Is that really the problem? In my experience, the vast majority of pool players only play and never practice. And the ones who do practice, “practice” by throwing balls out and half-heartedly whacking them in pockets. How often do we hear that the only way to get better is to gamble? It sure seems like the majority of advice when the question of improvement comes up here on AZ.

There’s the famous 10,000 hour rule that Gladwell wrote about in his book and often gets cited here. It’s based on a paper by Anders Ericsson who found that top musicians practiced alone for about 10,000 hours throughout their childhood to become professional violinists and pianists by the time they became adults. But the focus of that study was not only on the amount of time, but also on the type of practice, what’s called “deliberate practice,” where the key is that you’re not performing, you’re practicing scales and new techniques that you’re not good at, and mastering them. In pool, that would maybe translate to practicing shots that you can’t make, and doing it over and over.

That’s music, which is different from pool, but if you look at high-paid professional or Olympic sports, I don’t think any top coach would ever say “just get out there and play” and that would be the majority of their training. The vast majority of their time is spent isolating techniques or muscles or skills, and working on those for hours every day.

Probably very few pool players, if any, has ever done what the average Olympic athlete or golfer or other high-paid professional athlete does, because it’s just not that much fun and the money and glory isn’t there in pool. But I don’t know why pool would be any different from any other endeavor in requiring massive time spent on deliberate practice rather than “get out there and gamble.”

I think you're right. There's no reason to believe pool should be treated any differently than other skill-related endeavors that require deliberate, quality practice. Competition is important also. You can have all the skills in the world and fall apart on the stage, on the field, on the pool table, etc...

If you want to perform for people, like a musician, or compete against others in one sport or another, you must be "seasoned", in addition to practiced/skilled. That's where a lot of the "just get out there and play against better players" advice stems from -- seasoning.
 
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RDeca

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Damn guys. Good,stuff. I grew up playing and playing with champions. Im 40 and from about the age of,17 to 35 i played alot. So I know patterns. Position play, english. Trouble balls. Safter play.. kicks ..masse. prefer kick and masse over jump (I don't believe itx should be allowed unless full cue used that's another topic). Basically just getting confidence in your game does wonders. Thats what practice does. I've always known how to play the game right...but when u cant,execute it....its majorly frustrating.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Gentlemen,

A famous pool player offered me this very sound advice almost 60 years ago.

“Always practice with a purpose in mind or don’t even bother hitting any balls.”

So embrace that philosophy or don’t call it practice. Think of it as passing time.


Matt B.
A local very strong player took this a step farther. He never hit a ball without a goal and intensity. No quick, fun demo shots. All business.
 
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duckie

GregH
Silver Member
Damn guys. Good,stuff. I grew up playing and playing with champions. Im 40 and from about the age of,17 to 35 i played alot. So I know patterns. Position play, english. Trouble balls. Safter play.. kicks ..masse. prefer kick and masse over jump (I don't believe itx should be allowed unless full cue used that's another topic). Basically just getting confidence in your game does wonders. Thats what practice does. I've always known how to play the game right...but when u cant,execute it....its majorly frustrating.

Well, then you are ready for the most humbling game of pool........14.1, straight pool.

There’s a reason most don’t play it........it’s hard. It requires you to be fluent in all types of pool shots, type of shots that don’t come up a lot in other games, but can save a run in 14.1.
 
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BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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Well, then you are ready for the most humbling game of pool........14.1, straight pool.

There’s a reason most don’t play it........it’s hard. It requires you to be fluent in all types of pool shots, type of shots that don’t come up a lot in other games, but can save a run in 14.1.

So true. Well said. You can be capable of running 4 and 5 packs in 8ball or 9ball, but if you don't play much straight pool you'll likely find yourself struggling to run 15 to 20 balls. It is a very humbling game indeed.
 

Geosnooker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Never.

I just play to have fun. I also don’t practice fishing, slowpitch, ball hockey. No goals other than to enjoy the moment. After decades I can hold my on a Snooker table except against a ranking player.

But...a big but...I likely have 50 billiard games that I’ve made up over the years. All types of elaborate quirky rules....done this since I was a little kid whether it be marbles, Tiddly wInks or whatever.

My made up games involve different skills. One is called ‘Stalingrad’...involves sharpshooting. Another is ‘Cliffhanger’’ elaborate game using exact speed to get certain balls as hangers over the pockets. Another is ‘Chaos’...I throw three sets of American balls on the Snooker table wih an elaborate order of potting....great for reading the table. ‘The battle of Britain’ involves a cluster of red balls (spitfires) escorting colours(bombers). Have to knock off the fighter escorts using draw shots to get at the colours.

One common feature is I usually use any ball as the cueball. I find I can get way more hits in. Some on line lessons spend more time setting for up a drill than hitting balls...retrieving the white ball, etc. I just hit or grab the nearest ball.

Anyways. Not practice but hone various skills in a wide variety of games.
 
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Tin Man

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
practice

Is that really the problem? In my experience, the vast majority of pool players only play and never practice. And the ones who do practice, “practice” by throwing balls out and half-heartedly whacking them in pockets. How often do we hear that the only way to get better is to gamble? It sure seems like the majority of advice when the question of improvement comes up here on AZ.

There’s the famous 10,000 hour rule that Gladwell wrote about in his book and often gets cited here. It’s based on a paper by Anders Ericsson who found that top musicians practiced alone for about 10,000 hours throughout their childhood to become professional violinists and pianists by the time they became adults. But the focus of that study was not only on the amount of time, but also on the type of practice, what’s called “deliberate practice,” where the key is that you’re not performing, you’re practicing scales and new techniques that you’re not good at, and mastering them. In pool, that would maybe translate to practicing shots that you can’t make, and doing it over and over.

That’s music, which is different from pool, but if you look at high-paid professional or Olympic sports, I don’t think any top coach would ever say “just get out there and play” and that would be the majority of their training. The vast majority of their time is spent isolating techniques or muscles or skills, and working on those for hours every day.

Probably very few pool players, if any, has ever done what the average Olympic athlete or golfer or other high-paid professional athlete does, because it’s just not that much fun and the money and glory isn’t there in pool. But I don’t know why pool would be any different from any other endeavor in requiring massive time spent on deliberate practice rather than “get out there and gamble.”

I outlined in my first post what I consider to be an ideal split. 75% sparring and competition, 25% practice and other study. I stand by this.

I agree that at the recreational level the majority of the players don't put in enough practice. But they also don't put in enough effort during competition. They do neither, really, and are kind of bangers.

At the serious level there are players that only spar and compete and never practice. There are also players that like to study, practice, and talk pool, but don't get into the ring enough. I like the essence of what you are saying, take the game seriously, learn it, study it, and practice it. I've just seen many players take this too far and fall out of balance the other way.

This isn't the Olympics. We aren't performing a solo routine and getting scored by judges. Instead we are playing against other players that are firing back at us. This creates a ton of different types of pressure situations that don't come up when we are simply executing a rehearsed routine. We have a game plan in mind, then our opponent starts shooting our liver out and we have to regroup and fade some massive assaults. Now, practice does help as you can try to stick to your process goals and just try to play the same as you do in your basement. But in reality there is no way to really do that without a lot of battle experience.

It's true that people have traditionally dismissed the importance of practicing and that is coming around. But we can't dismiss the importance of match play. There are some great players that got to the top levels without disciplined practice. There are none that didn't live for competition and virtually live in battle for years. Because battle is the only place you can practice your battling skills.

Maybe I'm talking to the AZers, people that I've spoken to that read forums, watch videos, do drills, but don't expose themselves in the heat of battle more than occasionally. This is my concern. As long as you're using your practice to work on skills you then bring to competition, I'm all for it. But practice by itself won't make a world class competitor. What it can do is take a competitor and make them tougher.
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
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So true. Well said. You can be capable of running 4 and 5 packs in 8ball or 9ball, but if you don't play much straight pool you'll likely find yourself struggling to run 15 to 20 balls. It is a very humbling game indeed.

Table time got too expensive to GAF. Straight pool doesn't go well unless the conditions are ideal. Without those conditions, trying to master humidity and varying equipment to get a rack to buss open gud is a waste of time.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Well, then you are ready for the most humbling game of pool........14.1, straight pool.

There’s a reason most don’t play it........it’s hard. It requires you to be fluent in all types of pool shots, type of shots that don’t come up a lot in other games, but can save a run in 14.1.

I’m totally on board with playing straight pool....keep trying to beat your high run.
...I like how Sigel would approach it...hit long full shots fairly hard, dead ball....
...when his arm loosened up, he’d play straight pool.
You won’t get lackadaisical if you’re striving for a run.

14.1 is a vehicle you can find your best game with...the other games will fall into line.
...and older people can still play at a high level...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JCdJ08_M3Y
 
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duckie

GregH
Silver Member
While long runs seems to get the most attention, there is nothing like a good safety battle in straight.

I look forward to them and actually practice safety’s on myself. Since most practice runs, I usually come out on top in a safety battle.
 

RDeca

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tough to find someone that wants to play 14.1 I like it but am not gonna lie. Most days don't have the patience for it. Same with one pocket
 

RDeca

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've played a snooker table a few, times I liked that,too. There isn't a table around anymore I dont,think
 

robertod

AzB Silver Member
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Not sure if I missed it here but I have not seen anyone mention practicing the basics, the fundamentals. proper stance, stroke , tempo, eye paterns. etc. continued practice without purpose could lead to just practicing our faults nad making them more pernament. Practice a bad stroke enough and you will make it work for you but hinder you in the long run. The only structured lesson I received was from Scott Lee and he stressed those points the most. I am sure he may chime in here and explain it better. Have sound fundamentals and go from there. I am sure it all depends on the level of player you are.

One of the top players in my pool room told me to just practice my stroke, forget about making balls. First get a sound fundamental proper stroke. And I have seen and realized that I was never going to make shots better players make consistantly without a a good stroke.
 

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not sure if I missed it here but I have not seen anyone mention practicing the basics, the fundamentals. proper stance, stroke , tempo, eye paterns. etc. continued practice without purpose could lead to just practicing our faults nad making them more pernament. Practice a bad stroke enough and you will make it work for you but hinder you in the long run. The only structured lesson I received was from Scott Lee and he stressed those points the most. I am sure he may chime in here and explain it better. Have sound fundamentals and go from there. I am sure it all depends on the level of player you are.

One of the top players in my pool room told me to just practice my stroke, forget about making balls. First get a sound fundamental proper stroke. And I have seen and realized that I was never going to make shots better players make consistantly without a a good stroke.[/

Post 20 is fundamentals...
 

RDeca

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jegermeister bottle with table cloth glued in opening. (So you don't bang your shaft up. Or use a cue u don't care about ) Set it on table either way( it's a rectangle bottle flat on all sides.) Set up your bridge hand like the mouth of the bottle is the cue ball and stroke your cue like your,striking the cueball. Tip goes in and out,of bottle without hitting edges. Yur strokes good. Do that for a solid 2 min before you hit a ball.
 

cue4me

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Something I remember from education classes back in college was that to get the most effective learning for new physical skills is that they should be performed in 20 minute increments for approximately 3 weeks. It had to do with the difficulty in remaining focused for a longer period of time. Of course everyone learns at different rates and some may not take the 3 weeks to master the new skill.
 
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9ball5032

AzB Silver Member
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About 4 days a week, 3 hrs a day. 9 ball and 8 ball with 10 % of the time setting up shots for muscle memory.

Sometimes i'll play more, depends on how I feel.
 

FeelDaShot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How often you guys practice and what's the duration? By practice I mean alone. Pocketing balls over and over. I imagine alot of guys don't do this. But I believe it's the only way.

In addition to TinMan's great advice he provided, I would say practice for as long as you can stay focused. That time frame can greatly vary depending on your interest level at the time. Some days you won't be able to find any focus at all and other days you won't want to put the cue down.

I also have different levels of interest. Sometimes I'll really want to be competitive so I'll usually play the ghost with my focus on my success rate. Other days, I'm not in the mood to bear down enough to be super competitive. These lazier days, I'll just throw balls out on the table and run them.

On the non-competitive days, I try to focus really hard on a few minute details of the shot and stroke. Straight back arm, proper stance, tip placement...whatever I'm struggling with at the time. It also goes beyond fundamentals sometimes. For example, sometimes I'll focus on the throw of the object ball and experiment with different speeds, english, cut angles, etc. to become more familiar with how the ball will react. Other days, I try to completely zone out into a zen-like state and get into a trance. Smoking a little reefer on these days seems to inspire new focus and ideas too.

I find all of these different types of practice helpful. Just make sure you're not getting lazy with your attention span or fundamentals. Once that happens you'll start to develop bad habits and it's time to take a break.
 
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