Get pool out of the Taverns...

1on1pooltournys · May 31, 2012

I've recently reading all these threads about what's good for pool, bad for pool, and all the hoopla that comes with those arguments. It recently got me thinking about the depressed state of pool and a light bulb went off.

I know many will not support this argument, but I think it has a lot of merit behind it.

One of the problems with pool is the individuals we are introducing the sport to. I understand that leagues have been grandfathered in the taverns since there existence, and it has been profitable for league operators, but has it really helped promote the sport in the overall scheme of things? I don't think so. I'm trying my hardest not to be too stereotypical, but lets stop and take a look at where most of the pool population is congregating on a weekly basis. I can not speak for the rest of the country, but in my town the largest percentage of amateur or novice players are people of a below average economic status. These people are gathering in smoke filled bars where drunks and low lives hang out. What would be the turn on for somebody to want to enter the sport in that type of environment? It is an absolute turnoff for most people with any sort of formal education. Would you take somebody to play golf for the first time in the middle of the ghetto? Or maybe in Afghanistan? Hopefully the use of the extreme examples will allow you to grasp exactly what I think is keeping the sport we all love from thriving.

I think the focus needs to be turned from these establishments and concentrated in other areas. The Boys Club would be a good place to start. Cub scouts, girl scouts, country clubs, middle schools, and high schools would all be good places for us to take a look. Fraternal orders, summer camps, and other social dwellings would offer a friendlier atmosphere for the novice player. Casinos would even be a good place to hold leagues. They have a "poker room" where they make money. Why couldn't they have a few pool tables set up? It's just like a "rake" or check off. I wonder what the APA, VNEA, or some other leagues do for pool in these areas.

Perhaps this is something most people may think as hopeless, but I think with a bit of effort and a complete restructuring of how we introduce the sport to others could make a worthwhile improvement on the sport for the rest of time. The game is a wonderful game and takes the most disciplined of people to master. It can and should be appreciated by the masses. Hopefully with some of the great thinkers and players we have in the game we can overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are hindering us all.

We should of learned from the poker boom that took place a few years back that people love to compete and gamble. Poker has a surplus of players and people now from the excitement and thrill when it made its debut on national tv. Common people became interested and took up the game. Now they have a surplus of bodies and a huge "pool" of characters. TAR is onto something and has came the closest of most anybody in their latest endeavors as far as promoting and advancing the sport. With a few more things implemented, (I have some good ideas :smile

I could see them being the driving force behind revamping the game and getting it into the mainstream.

I apologize if I have offended any league players, and I know there are thousands of them. I understand we have to have leagues, and they aren't a bad thing. I would just like to see them implemented in other establishments and be more appealing to the masses. Again, trying not to be too stereotypical.

Sorry for the long rant. :thumbup:

Banks · May 31, 2012

1on1pooltournys said:
I apologize if I have offended any league players, and I know there are thousands of them. I understand we have to have leagues, and they aren't a bad thing. I would just like to see them implemented in other establishments and be more appealing to the masses. Again, trying not to be too stereotypical.

I consider myself a big defender of leagues, but I take no offense to your post, as it is well put and thought out.

In the in-house BCA league that I play in, many of the players started out in APA. I view the leagues as something similar to baseball.. you start out with peewee, then high school, then college and then the pros. I believe that the leagues are vital to introducing people to 'serious' and higher level play. The larger the base, the higher the peak is able to rise.

In regards to leagues, I think that there should be a 'pro' league. As in other sports, this would be a much higher entry fee. It could be tended to by one of the current leagues, using their current systems to organize the numbers and possibly use the marketing as an offset to a non-profit standpoint on the league monies. That's another topic entirely, though.

In Portland, we have numerous leagues that either have in-house divisions in pool halls, or have several teams that are based out of halls. Myself, I'm not sure if I could have afforded the hourly costs of a pool hall while at the same time using it as relaxation(tipping back a few, socializing, etc - and not worrying about a drive home). Where I currently hang out, they are barboxes for 25c/game. A friend told me about one of the bars that now has, I think, 6 diamond barboxes. They've got tons of league play there now, both APA and BCA. The tables are something like, $4/hr, $3/hr for league players, $2/hr for league players based out of that bar. That's a pretty hard deal to find.

As for the high-level play and education, from what I can tell, many of the past pro-speed players weren't usually from affluent families, or least not highly-educated. That runs counter to the idea that being in a place of questionable clientelle does not hurt one's game.

To me, barboxes represent a different kind of game. From what I can tell, the big table players I run into have a separate style. There are benefits to learning on both, big tables helping a stroke and pocketing, while small tables encourage aggressive shooting and CB control.

What makes poker so popular, is that you can be a winner without having to do much executing(being dealt winning hands). In pool, you have to have both going for you - execution and knowledge.

I like the tiers of pool.. you're always faced with another goal to reach.

JMW · May 31, 2012

I agree with your comments. I am an educated white collar worker who plays league in a smokey tavern with so called blue collar folks. Some are tatooed, kind of sleezy and stay drunk most of the time. We all know what I am talking about. My wife won't come watch me play because of the atmosphere.

One day at my white collar workplace, a coworker died and a collection was made to help the family. Hardly anyone donated and those that did gave only a little. Most of the people have a six figure income. It was embarrassing.

One day at league, a player had and accident on his motorcycle. A collection was made to donate money to help his family. I was touched by what I saw. The so called blue collar folks all pulled together and donated large sums of money. And this was a sacrifice because most needed the money. They really cared and they gave when it hurt.

I learned a big lesson that day about not judging a book by its cover. Life is about what's in your heart and not your ego or wallet. I am proud to play pool in a tavern with my blue collar below average economic status buddies. I have made friendships that will last a lifetime. Cheers to you!!! (just downed a beer) :thumbup:

poolguy4u · May 31, 2012

I think it was only 4 or 5 years ago...Brandon Shuff and Shawn Wilke played in Tap League. Brandon was on the front cover of every pool magazine and still played Tap league.

Some people can't shoot without beer, alcohol, and other things.:smile:

msubilliards · May 31, 2012

I think its an image problem, right now pool is associated with bars and gambling. Is that a bad thing? Well it is if you want to really grow the game and attract legitimate sponsors that will spend millions. Do I have problems with bars or gambling, absolutely not. But professional golf was seen as a bad thing back in the early 1900's and it had to change its image and the fruits of its labor had paid off. Hopefully pool can realize this, I would love to see these guys make millions a year doing what they love and be able to watch a professional pool tournament on tv on a weeky basis.

macguy · May 31, 2012

1on1pooltournys said:
I've recently reading all these threads about what's good for pool, bad for pool, and all the hoopla that comes with those arguments. It recently got me thinking about the depressed state of pool and a light bulb went off.

I know many will not support this argument, but I think it has a lot of merit behind it.

One of the problems with pool is the individuals we are introducing the sport to. I understand that leagues have been grandfathered in the taverns since there existence, and it has been profitable for league operators, but has it really helped promote the sport in the overall scheme of things? I don't think so. I'm trying my hardest not to be too stereotypical, but lets stop and take a look at where most of the pool population is congregating on a weekly basis. I can not speak for the rest of the country, but in my town the largest percentage of amateur or novice players are people of a below average economic status. These people are gathering in smoke filled bars where drunks and low lives hang out. What would be the turn on for somebody to want to enter the sport in that type of environment? It is an absolute turnoff for most people with any sort of formal education. Would you take somebody to play golf for the first time in the middle of the ghetto? Or maybe in Afghanistan? Hopefully the use of the extreme examples will allow you to grasp exactly what I think is keeping the sport we all love from thriving.

I think the focus needs to be turned from these establishments and concentrated in other areas. The Boys Club would be a good place to start. Cub scouts, girl scouts, country clubs, middle schools, and high schools would all be good places for us to take a look. Fraternal orders, summer camps, and other social dwellings would offer a friendlier atmosphere for the novice player. Casinos would even be a good place to hold leagues. They have a "poker room" where they make money. Why couldn't they have a few pool tables set up? It's just like a "rake" or check off. I wonder what the APA, VNEA, or some other leagues do for pool in these areas.

Perhaps this is something most people may think as hopeless, but I think with a bit of effort and a complete restructuring of how we introduce the sport to others could make a worthwhile improvement on the sport for the rest of time. The game is a wonderful game and takes the most disciplined of people to master. It can and should be appreciated by the masses. Hopefully with some of the great thinkers and players we have in the game we can overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are hindering us all.

We should of learned from the poker boom that took place a few years back that people love to compete and gamble. Poker has a surplus of players and people now from the excitement and thrill when it made its debut on national tv. Common people became interested and took up the game. Now they have a surplus of bodies and a huge "pool" of characters. TAR is onto something and has came the closest of most anybody in their latest endeavors as far as promoting and advancing the sport. With a few more things implemented, (I have some good ideas :smile I could see them being the driving force behind revamping the game and getting it into the mainstream.

I apologize if I have offended any league players, and I know there are thousands of them. I understand we have to have leagues, and they aren't a bad thing. I would just like to see them implemented in other establishments and be more appealing to the masses. Again, trying not to be too stereotypical.

Sorry for the long rant. :thumbup:

To play poker all you need is two players and a $2.00 pack of cards. Pool is not quite so simple. Bars are where the tables are. Where are all these people going to play? Pool rooms are closing more then opening. Many cities have laws that make it pretty much impossible to operate a room. Tavern pool and leagues are where it's at. I remember when pool was pretty much gone all together, tavern pool saved it from extension.

By the way, pool is not in a depressed state it is alive and doing fine. It is just not a professional sport where someone can make a living but neither are most sports from Archery to Ice skating but that does not mean it is not thriving. Millions play every week on leagues and more and more are exposed to the game every day.

joe76195 · May 31, 2012

If you want real players, you need real pool tables. Not the crap you see in most bars.

macguy · May 31, 2012

msubilliards said:
I think its an image problem, right now pool is associated with bars and gambling. Is that a bad thing? Well it is if you want to really grow the game and attract legitimate sponsors that will spend millions. Do I have problems with bars or gambling, absolutely not. But professional golf was seen as a bad thing back in the early 1900's and it had to change its image and the fruits of its labor had paid off. Hopefully pool can realize this, I would love to see these guys make millions a year doing what they love and be able to watch a professional pool tournament on tv on a weeky basis.

"Right Now", when has pool not been associated with gambling? In fact, the gambling nature associated with pool has always been the hook that got the public's interest.

macguy · May 31, 2012

joe76195 said:
If you want real players, you need real pool tables. Not the crap you see in most bars.

That's not true anymore, the quality of tavern tables are very good now a days.

JMW · May 31, 2012

macguy said:
By the way, pool is not in a depressed state it is alive and doing fine. It is just not a professional sport where someone can make a living but neither are most sports from Archery to Ice skating but that does not mean it is not thriving. Millions play every week on leagues and more and more are exposed to the game every day.

I agree with this. But what I don't understand is how bowling supports professional players and gets TV time. it's not exactly a spectator sport. Is it because kids are allowed in the bowling alley?

macguy · May 31, 2012

JMW said:
I agree with this. But what I don't understand is how bowling supports professional players and gets TV time. it's not exactly a spectator sport. Is it because kids are allowed in the bowling alley?

Bowling is not an accident. They have had a solid business plan going back to the 50's. In fact right from the start they knew where they want to go and recognized what TV could be and how bowling could fit in. I remember reading about it like 40 years ago. It was a well crafted plan with a specific goal built around TV. Pool has never been well organized in any way and probably never will be. Pool has never known what it wanted to be when it grew up. The public perception of pool is not that of a professional sport.

I remember Danny DiLiberto being interviewed by I think Chris Schenkel years ago and at a point in the interview he asked Danny what he did for a living. Danny said he played pool. Chris Schenkel said, "No, I mean when you are not playing pool what do you do for a living"?
Get my point.

bdorman · May 31, 2012

From a business standpoint, the revenue generated by a pool table alone cannot pay for itself. It takes up too much space and generates too little revenue. So the owner has to be able to generate other (food, drink, etc.) sales just to break even.

So what goes along with playing pool? Liquor works well because it has high profit margins. Starbucks has shown that high-end coffee can generate good profits but the upfront cost (expresso machines, etc) is fairly high. Food is pretty profitable but much depends on other food competition in the immediate area.

Even in a non-profit environment the idea of putting in a pool table has to compete with other ways to use the space. I can put 10 art students in the same space that a pool table takes...and it's a whole lot easier to sell art classes than pool. My non-profit benefactors will be much happier to see their donations used to buy "community" computers than pool tables.

I don't mean to diss your idea. I support it, but you've got to know what you're up against. You can't make a sale unless you understand the competition. I'm big on the "retired" market: they have time and money, they like afternoon activities (when the pool room isn't busy!) and they love to compete. The only problem is that your clientele keeps dying off. Another poster began a thread about speed pool. It's not for me, but I think it stands a good chance of attracting teenage males.

wontonny · May 31, 2012

You bring up many good points here. My favorite quote is "do you want to take someone to golf for their first time in the middle of the ghetto?" hahaha.
My 2 cents is that the professional, televised game needs to be 8 ball. It's the game the non-pool playing public knows right off the bat as what pool is. When you televise the game on these easy to understand terms, then the love and interest for the game can grow.

thommy · May 31, 2012

Bowling was dead until two Micro soft guys bought the league and have supported it ever since. Still not anywhere near where it used to be.

mortuarymike-nv · May 31, 2012

bar pool

First the word pool means collective betting.....................................
2nd the crap I have seen some pro's pull would not cut in a bar.
3 pool is rated 1 one for drug and alcohol abuse for non olympic sports.
4 I like sleezy pool halls

5th of whiskey here some place.
MMike

CreeDo · May 31, 2012

I think you got it backwards. The pool world doesn't target bars, bars get coin-op pool tables because they're an easy way to make money and attract customers. Then they talk to the local APA/BCA/whatever guy. That guy is also interested in making money, so maybe he makes the first move and talks to every bar in the area. In any case, he's not going to say no to a bar if they want to join.

You can target kids clubs and try to form leagues there, but there are only so many kids out there, and lots more adults who want to play the game somewhere that allows them to relax, drink, and smoke.

I have no idea where you're going with the "individuals we introduce the sport to." ...I was introduced by my dad, and later by my friends at work. I didn't learn about it at a bar. And I don't go to bars to recruit people into the wonderful world of pocket billiards.

I mean, if the thrust of your post is "We should try to start youth leagues"... ok, great.

But you can't seriously talk about getting pool out of bars. Leagues are open to everyone, they don't recruit 'types' and I don't want them to start. How would that work? Turn away people who drink or don't meet a dress code? Refuse to include bar venues in local league? Try to keep pool a secret from shady characters, ban bar owners from purchasing a table? Maybe haul it out of there in the dead of night?

mikeyfrost · Jun 1, 2012

1on1pooltournys said:
I've recently reading all these threads about what's good for pool, bad for pool, and all the hoopla that comes with those arguments. It recently got me thinking about the depressed state of pool and a light bulb went off.

I know many will not support this argument, but I think it has a lot of merit behind it.

One of the problems with pool is the individuals we are introducing the sport to. I understand that leagues have been grandfathered in the taverns since there existence, and it has been profitable for league operators, but has it really helped promote the sport in the overall scheme of things? I don't think so. I'm trying my hardest not to be too stereotypical, but lets stop and take a look at where most of the pool population is congregating on a weekly basis. I can not speak for the rest of the country, but in my town the largest percentage of amateur or novice players are people of a below average economic status. These people are gathering in smoke filled bars where drunks and low lives hang out. What would be the turn on for somebody to want to enter the sport in that type of environment? It is an absolute turnoff for most people with any sort of formal education. Would you take somebody to play golf for the first time in the middle of the ghetto? Or maybe in Afghanistan? Hopefully the use of the extreme examples will allow you to grasp exactly what I think is keeping the sport we all love from thriving.

I think the focus needs to be turned from these establishments and concentrated in other areas. The Boys Club would be a good place to start. Cub scouts, girl scouts, country clubs, middle schools, and high schools would all be good places for us to take a look. Fraternal orders, summer camps, and other social dwellings would offer a friendlier atmosphere for the novice player. Casinos would even be a good place to hold leagues. They have a "poker room" where they make money. Why couldn't they have a few pool tables set up? It's just like a "rake" or check off. I wonder what the APA, VNEA, or some other leagues do for pool in these areas.

Perhaps this is something most people may think as hopeless, but I think with a bit of effort and a complete restructuring of how we introduce the sport to others could make a worthwhile improvement on the sport for the rest of time. The game is a wonderful game and takes the most disciplined of people to master. It can and should be appreciated by the masses. Hopefully with some of the great thinkers and players we have in the game we can overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are hindering us all.

We should of learned from the poker boom that took place a few years back that people love to compete and gamble. Poker has a surplus of players and people now from the excitement and thrill when it made its debut on national tv. Common people became interested and took up the game. Now they have a surplus of bodies and a huge "pool" of characters. TAR is onto something and has came the closest of most anybody in their latest endeavors as far as promoting and advancing the sport. With a few more things implemented, (I have some good ideas :smile I could see them being the driving force behind revamping the game and getting it into the mainstream.

I apologize if I have offended any league players, and I know there are thousands of them. I understand we have to have leagues, and they aren't a bad thing. I would just like to see them implemented in other establishments and be more appealing to the masses. Again, trying not to be too stereotypical.

Sorry for the long rant. :thumbup:

I'm feeling you on this one buddy. We need country clubs for our shit. You know Pool has made it when a guy says I'm taking the afternoon off or coming in late so I can play some 9-ball. Upscale the game baby.

PoolSharkAllen · Jun 1, 2012

1on1pooltournys said:
I think the focus needs to be turned from these establishments and concentrated in other areas. The Boys Club would be a good place to start. Cub scouts, girl scouts, country clubs, middle schools, and high schools would all be good places for us to take a look. Fraternal orders, summer camps, and other social dwellings would offer a friendlier atmosphere for the novice player. Casinos would even be a good place to hold leagues. They have a "poker room" where they make money. Why couldn't they have a few pool tables set up? It's just like a "rake" or check off. I wonder what the APA, VNEA, or some other leagues do for pool in these areas.

Perhaps this is something most people may think as hopeless, but I think with a bit of effort and a complete restructuring of how we introduce the sport to others could make a worthwhile improvement on the sport for the rest of time. The game is a wonderful game and takes the most disciplined of people to master. It can and should be appreciated by the masses. Hopefully with some of the great thinkers and players we have in the game we can overcome the hurdles and obstacles that are hindering us all.

While getting pool out of the taverns and into other venues is a wonderful sentiment, one does need to consider the space requirements and capital costs involved (2-3K/table). How are these tables going to be paid for and will they generate any revenue/profit for the venue? What about the ongoing maintenance costs?

I'd love to see pool introduced to the masses in other places besides bars but in this day and age of tight budgets, one does need to consider the economics of this too.

Maxx · Jun 1, 2012

Sorry for the advertisement, but this sums up my feelings about pool and bars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fulz4ytZ54

btown · Jun 1, 2012

i dont get it, i like playing in bars and poolhalls.. playing pool at a boys n girls club? or a country club would be boring. most people like to play in the evening or late night.. bars/pool halls is where its at

Get pool out of the Taverns...

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