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mikemosconi
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12-16-2018, 07:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
No. That gives too much margin for ball placement. The triangle placement should match the drawn outline as closely as possible.
I do not understand your response here, when there is a triangle outline on the table and the break ball and cue ball only are left on the table prior to a break shot , either they each lie on, within, or outside those lines - only possibilities there; and when the other fourteen balls are reracked, they ALL must lie INSIDE the marked triangle - so simple, how could this cause any issues in a match?
  
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Bob Jewett
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12-16-2018, 11:37 AM

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Originally Posted by mikemosconi View Post
I do not understand your response here, when there is a triangle outline on the table and the break ball and cue ball only are left on the table prior to a break shot , either they each lie on, within, or outside those lines - only possibilities there; and when the other fourteen balls are reracked, they ALL must lie INSIDE the marked triangle - so simple, how could this cause any issues in a match?
Suppose....

We are playing rack your own. My standard side-of-the-rack break ball is a little low and it looks like I'm barely going to nick the corner of the rack even if I play the shot softly with draw. I move the rack towards the foot rail as far as I can and still leave the back row within the marked outline. With the triangle were using, that happens to be a full inch. I break with stun and smash the balls wide open.

That's the kind of situation I'm talking about and I think it is what Danny was talking about above in the original post.

I think it is blatant cheating to rack like that.


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12-16-2018, 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Suppose....

We are playing rack your own. My standard side-of-the-rack break ball is a little low and it looks like I'm barely going to nick the corner of the rack even if I play the shot softly with draw. I move the rack towards the foot rail as far as I can and still leave the back row within the marked outline. With the triangle were using, that happens to be a full inch. I break with stun and smash the balls wide open.

That's the kind of situation I'm talking about and I think it is what Danny was talking about above in the original post.

I think it is blatant cheating to rack like that.
It is always blatant cheating to rack any other way than to....:
‘Place the head ball space directly over the footspot, lower and pull the triangle (3rd side parallel to the footrail) rearward until contacting the front pair while simultaneously forcing the remaining balls forward until all are touching’. That is the position the triangle is required to be in when the pencil line is drawn.
I think some confusion might exist with indelible lines that remain on tables where their original triangles have gone missing, and been replaced with larger models. Thus my earlier comment re: how a pencil line might not always be considered an official demarcation, but rather merely a guide. The VENERABLE rules of the game are very simple, regardless of what model triangle is available:
IF THE BALLS CANNOT BE RACKED IN THE PROSCRIBED MANNER (see above) BY LOWERING THE TRIANGLE STRAIGHT DOWN WITHOUT DISTURBING THE 15TH BALL......THEN IT GOES ON THE HEADSPOT! It either interferes, or it doesn’t (not complicated)! Any arguing, whining, calling over 3rd parties, or marking/moving the breakball, is demonstrating (IMHO) just as silly a form of behavior as those who constantly argue with the referee in ANY sport, thus revealing their LACK of sportsmanship!

So, I guess this would mean that those who play on all-Diamond equipment had better learn to select their behind-the-rack breakshots closer to the footrail!

Last edited by DynoDan; 12-16-2018 at 02:21 PM.
  
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12-16-2018, 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
It is always blatant cheating to rack any other way than to....:
‘Place the head ball space directly over the footspot, lower and pull the triangle (3rd side parallel to the footrail) rearward until contacting the front pair while simultaneously forcing the remaining balls forward until all are touching’. That is the position the triangle is required to be in when the pencil line is drawn.
I think some confusion might exist with indelible lines that remain on tables where their original triangles have gone missing, and been replaced with larger models. Thus my earlier comment re: how a pencil line might not always be considered an official demarcation, but rather merely a guide. The VENERABLE rules of the game are very simple, regardless of what model triangle is available:
IF THE BALLS CANNOT BE RACKED IN THE PROSCRIBED MANNER (see above) BY LOWERING THE TRIANGLE STRAIGHT DOWN WITHOUT DISTURBING THE 15TH BALL......THEN IT GOES ON THE HEADSPOT! It either interferes, or it doesn’t (not complicated)! Any arguing, whining, calling over 3rd parties, or marking/moving the breakball, is demonstrating (IMHO) just as silly a form of behavior as those who constantly argue with the referee in ANY sport, thus revealing their LACK of sportsmanship!

So, I guess this would mean that those who play on all-Diamond equipment had better learn to select their behind-the-rack breakshots closer to the footrail!
All of this nonsense goes away if you have an actual ref at important matches. But whatever... 9 ball on mini tables is all the rage...
  
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Bob Jewett
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12-16-2018, 06:31 PM

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Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
...
IF THE BALLS CANNOT BE RACKED IN THE PROSCRIBED MANNER (see above) BY LOWERING THE TRIANGLE STRAIGHT DOWN WITHOUT DISTURBING THE 15TH BALL......THEN IT GOES ON THE HEADSPOT! ...
That's not the rule. You may want to look at what the rules actually say. I believe the rules were never as you have written above.


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12-17-2018, 08:18 AM

What rulebook/sanctioning organization do you currently consider the most relevant re: 14.1? Back in the day, it was BCA, and I still have an old book that verifies my statement. It makes absolutely no mention of your marking/replacing rule.
  
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Bob Jewett
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12-17-2018, 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
What rulebook/sanctioning organization do you currently consider the most relevant re: 14.1? Back in the day, it was BCA, and I still have an old book that verifies my statement. It makes absolutely no mention of your marking/replacing rule.
I go by the WPA rules which the BCA currently follows. The marked line determines when the ball interferes.

You are right that the old rules simply said, "interferes with the racking of the fourteen balls." What constitutes interference was not defined in the rules. In a previous racking discussion one player said that as long as a ball was not overlapping a ball in the rack, it was not interfering -- just mark it and put it back afterwards. It is not unreasonable to argue that if the ball is so close to the line that you will touch it when placing or removing the rack, the ball is interfering. And then there are the triangles that do not have straight sides and interference depends on which side of the triangle is placed on the table.

The present rules define interference according to the drawn line. It is easy to test with a small block of wood or metal or even a 3x5 card. I have a ball marker that works well for in/out testing.

If you are using a Sardo rack or the table is tapped, you are supposed to draw a line with a normal triangle and use that for in/out.


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Danny Harriman
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yep - 12-28-2018, 03:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
Suppose....

We are playing rack your own. My standard side-of-the-rack break ball is a little low and it looks like I'm barely going to nick the corner of the rack even if I play the shot softly with draw. I move the rack towards the foot rail as far as I can and still leave the back row within the marked outline. With the triangle were using, that happens to be a full inch. I break with stun and smash the balls wide open.

That's the kind of situation I'm talking about and I think it is what Danny was talking about above in the original post.

I think it is blatant cheating to rack like that.
This is correct, the (no referee :-() rack your own format is what I was referring to as well. When there is no referee and triangle is not the same as outlined on table - things can get a bit shady when player racking has a break shot that is either a bit high or low. This makes our great game of 14.1 look bad, Just another sign that we do need referee's. At the top level - if there are no referee's we are poisoning the sport period. Sometimes you see this when players are playing for a couple bucks a game, should never see it in major event in my humble opinion. Ya that is an odd situation indeed, but in the end justice prevails. :-0 AND 'the score ends up being right' for the dude who ain't a cheater.

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agreed
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agreed - 12-28-2018, 03:31 PM

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Originally Posted by john coloccia View Post
All of this nonsense goes away if you have an actual ref at important matches. But whatever... 9 ball on mini tables is all the rage...
I could not agree wit' ya more.
  
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12-29-2018, 02:49 PM

I don’t get it. Your opponent is the ‘referee’, and racks if you are shooting. If your breakball is close to the rack, then you watch him rack. If you think he is positioning the rack (regardless of what triangle is used) improperly, you inform him of your concern. If you think his decision (which IS final) is incorrect or devious after due consultation, you merely concede the match and pay the stakes. Better to lose ONE bet than to ever again play an opponent of such questionable morals. Couldn’t be simpler.
  
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12-31-2018, 03:35 PM

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Better to lose ONE bet than to ever again play an opponent of such questionable morals. Couldn’t be simpler.
you =======>>>>>>

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01-01-2019, 08:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
No. That gives too much margin for ball placement. The triangle placement should match the drawn outline as closely as possible.
The only precise way to rack for serious competitive 14.1 play when the outline of the rack being used is not clearly drawn on the cloth, is you must have both vertical and horizontal crosshairs drawn on the cloth through the center of the footspot. The vertical line extends from above the footspot far enough up to make sure the top point of the rack is centered and that line extends all the way below the bottom of the rack in order to properly line up the center back ball when racking. The horizontal crosshair line is drawn through the center of the footspot must extend out beyond both sides of the rack to be able to confirm that head ball is not being racked too high or too low. It is even recommended to have an extra cue ball and place it on the footspot when racking the other 14 balls, to assure the rack is set with both crosshairs going directly through the middle of that head ball, which is then removed after lifting up the rack. In tournament play, some feel that if the break ball and/or cue ball is not located real close to that rack line, a slight variance (racking slightly high or low) may be permitted to try to obtain as tight a rack as possible, but that should certainly be communicated to all players who are playing and racking as to whether or not that will be permitted.
  
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keep it between the lines
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keep it between the lines - 01-03-2019, 04:51 PM

I never practice without a line drawn for the rack, I never knew how easily a subject can get thrown off course untill I saw some of the responses here. Bottom line is - if your playing rack your own format then you are subject to being cheated in any discipline of pool - unless you know how to protect yourself. Again for those who can't understand or seem to want to over-complicate my point - it is imperative to use the actual triangle that was originally used to trace the rack line in 14.1 or else the rack location can be easily manipulated. This hurts the integrity of the great game of Straight Pool, I will never again compete in an event where the ref's are biased (and or do not fully understand the rules they are 'trying to implement') and or my opponent wants to use a different triangle (than the one originally drawn for the rack line) so as to move the rack either high or low depending on break shot. So again for those who are in remiss of the facts, if your watching a 14.1 match and the players are not using the original rack tht was used to determine spacial relations - the ball's will not be racked the same every time and aqwaurd situations will arise indeed. ssl I just like a level playing field for my cash.

I would add that some day when the 14.1 is promoted properly - there will be technology put in place that keeps the triangle away from spacial deception ie human error. Then the game will be more fun to watch and the cheats will be 'lost in their own space'. adios just an angle that I thought I would try.

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01-04-2019, 02:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by DynoDan View Post
It is always blatant cheating to rack any other way than to....:
‘Place the head ball space directly over the footspot, lower and pull the triangle (3rd side parallel to the footrail) rearward until contacting the front pair while simultaneously forcing the remaining balls forward until all are touching’. That is the position the triangle is required to be in when the pencil line is drawn.
I think some confusion might exist with indelible lines that remain on tables where their original triangles have gone missing, and been replaced with larger models. Thus my earlier comment re: how a pencil line might not always be considered an official demarcation, but rather merely a guide. The VENERABLE rules of the game are very simple, regardless of what model triangle is available:
IF THE BALLS CANNOT BE RACKED IN THE PROSCRIBED MANNER (see above) BY LOWERING THE TRIANGLE STRAIGHT DOWN WITHOUT DISTURBING THE 15TH BALL......THEN IT GOES ON THE HEADSPOT! It either interferes, or it doesn’t (not complicated)! Any arguing, whining, calling over 3rd parties, or marking/moving the breakball, is demonstrating (IMHO) just as silly a form of behavior as those who constantly argue with the referee in ANY sport, thus revealing their LACK of sportsmanship!

So, I guess this would mean that those who play on all-Diamond equipment had better learn to select their behind-the-rack breakshots closer to the footrail!
Ya I think some confusion might exist there dyno dan, Grateful Dead say's when you get confused - listen to the music. It might be time to listen to the music.
  
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01-06-2019, 03:19 PM

[QUOTE=Danny Harriman ....‘Grateful Dead’...[/QUOTE]

I could never comprehend justification for the extent of their popularity, unless you were in the audience when they were tossing out free ‘Owlsleys’ (?).
  
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