How much do you benefit playing with and against others that are better than you?

Surround yourself with better players

mattman said:

Here's my situation. I play in league with two cousins and a friend. This is a VENA league division II. The better players are in division I and new, and weaker players/teams are in either division II or III. Right now, as far as the stats (game average, power average, games won, points....etc) go, I am in the top of all fields. This makes me feel great and gives me loads of confidence. As far as the stats go, I know those are based primarily on the my opponents abilities. Although I know the real opponent is the table itself.

My teammates put no effort into the game and would rather watch tv than spend a hour a week practicing. Two of my teammates (my cousins) live less than two miles from my house and know they are welcomed to come and practice on my table any time, but make no effort.

Here are my two questions for you, as I am sure many of you have been in this sort of situation.

1) Did you notice an improvement in you game playing with and against others that are better and take the game just as serious as you?

2) How do you tell your family (cousins) and friend that you want to play on another team? I have rehearsed what I will tell them, but I feel anyway I word it, they are going to either feel hurt or insulted.

If I could, I would play two nights a week, one night with the guys I like and another night with some better players, but I can't right now.

Thanks,
Mattman

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Playing with people better than you will only help your game. Also I don't think league play is all that good for your game either. I have never been into league play, but from what I've seen league play is more of a social thing than anything else. If you have a limited time to play pool, I would advise you to stop with the league play. How much time do you spend practicing on your game? When I say practicing, I mean really practice, not just throwing the balls out there and shooting. You need to spend time working on the weak aspects of your game. The people who do this are the ones who see improvement. I don't know how long you have been playing pool, but I bet you have observed people who have been playing 20+ years and don't play much better than you. The reason why their game doesn't get any better is that they don't work on it.
So yes surround yourself with better players, even if that means driving farther to a room where serious players play. Work on your game, and observe the good players watch them play, watch them practice, see what things they work on when they practice. One thing I can tell you, pool players are always willing to help out someone out who is working on getting better. People will notice when you are serious about getting better, you may not realize it but pool players observe everyone in the pool room. Somebody who you may look up to as a top notch player, will notice you working hard on your game and you will find they will just start coming up to you and giving you tips on your game and what to work on without even having to ask.
As far as your cousins go, you should just tell them that you want to get serious about pool and that what they are doing isn't.

I just watched them play someone else. It was free and I was/am a nit. Johnnyt

i only play better players....

I agree that playing others better than you will help your game. I also agree that league play isn't the best road to improvement but rather a fun social time if thats something you enjoy.

Getting better is a matter of desire. I think a great way to improve is to develop a library of accu-stat type videos and watch them over and over. Watch many different players, look for similarities in their play and style. I feel that although every player differs in their strokes and stance you can pick up vital information from these videos much faster than you would by occasionally playing a better player.

I also feel that if you enjoy 8 ball, a good choice for videos are the straight pool videos. Practicing straight pool will improve your 8 ball game very much.

Its like the baseball player who takes his practice swings with 2 bats and then using the one to hit with. Running racks in straight pool and then being faced with clearing your balls in a game of 8 ball becomes much simpler. Patterns show themselves and running out will happen much more often.

I agree, playing people better then myself always forces me to step up my game and I learn more valuable skills. I always enjoy and prefer playing people better then me, but won't shy away from playing someone less then myself if they are serious about playing. You have to give them the chance and respect as well. It's earned both ways and you can always stop after a few games. The lesser player should appreciate your time.

I think anytime you play a game of pool there is always something you can learn. Doesn't matter the player, time, table etc. Some of the worst people you can play will teach you something about the game that will come in handy down the road. Therefore I think league can be of value. Given the chance to play various people with different styles of play. Playing on different equipment in different environments. It's all lessons you can learn and use going forward. But I also think that you need to keep pushing the limits and this is where I think there can be a limitation with league play. Your captain/team may hold you back because of handicapping. I have seen people actually get better but get dropped or have difficulty getting on a team because they play too good. Not saying this is always true, just an observation.

I know my knowledge of playing pool became much more diverse from playing in different leagues, but my abilities in all the various games I play became better from playing more and better people then myself.

As for how to tell your family. You can tell them you want to step up your game which they will respect. You can also find another team first, join and then tell them the other team asked you to play-no one knows the wiser. Heck, it may spark your families interest and get them to step up their game. Some are leaders, some are followers. Sounds like you are a leader.

ez

I have received a lot of advice over the years and this is one of the ones I have been told numerous times: play better players, it will improve your game.

-Melinda

I equate it to running a footrace against a faster opponent, you may lose, but it will be the fastest that you have ever run...

1...on a per game basis i play better against equal or better players, BUT,,,overall, my game doesn't get better. getting better requires inner resolve to improve. in terms of actual LEARNING, i can learn from a video as much as any other way. social players, like your relatives, don't care.....it's social.

2...their you relatives. you can tell them anything. if they prefer watching tv, then they shouldn't get upset. and it's better than you finally getting upset later on, and taking it out on them.

I would say you absolutely need to get on a new better team, with tougher competition, for two reasons.

First, when you are the best player on your team, both your incentive and opportunities to improve are diminished. When you are on a team with someone better than you, you start to look up to that guy. You think "how can I play more like him?" And it's not just for yourself, but for your whole team that you want to play better. But if everyone is looking up to you, there's not that much pressure to improve, and no one to look up to for things to improve your own game (at least, not on your own team).

I had an experience with that on my first 9 ball league team. Two person teams. In this league I was ranked a 4, he was a 3. Even though we were one notch apart, I knew I couldn't rely on him for anything. For tie breakers we would play scotch doubles. I could leave him a straight short shot and he would miss it. It was totally demotivating for me to play with that guy because even if I played my best, it usually didn't result in anything better than me playing my worst.

Second, yes it is very good to play with better players. I don't think it is ever good for your game to be "the best." Best on your team, best in your league, best in your state (well, I have no experience with that last one...). Ideally your motivation comes from yourself, but in practice I think you need better competition to maintain a really strong desire to improve.

I don't know how I would tell my teammates in your situation. I've never enjoyed that part of it. But you need to do it for yourself, no question about it.

I find that my game goes up when I play better players. I focus more on myself and also on what they are doing. I watch them to see what I can learn and hopefully put back on them later in the session.

Since a better player can lock into a table faster it helps me to learn the speed of the table by watching how they hit the hit the ball.

I would just tell your teammates that you need to move up in class in order to get better. They should be cool with it. It doesn't sound like they are very competitive anyway. You might want to look around and see if you can find a replacement for yourself though.

Good luck.

How much better

I think its important to distinguish are you talking about better players in your league or for fun or gambling? If its for non gambling I say if a strong player is willing to beat up on you for free then grab every opportunity but if its for money I think you'll learn more from playing some one who's one ball or so better because most people stop focusing on the details once someone starts really drilling them for money.JMHO

mattman said:

Here's my situation. I play in league with two cousins and a friend. This is a VENA league division II. The better players are in division I and new, and weaker players/teams are in either division II or III. Right now, as far as the stats (game average, power average, games won, points....etc) go, I am in the top of all fields. This makes me feel great and gives me loads of confidence. As far as the stats go, I know those are based primarily on the my opponents abilities. Although I know the real opponent is the table itself.

My teammates put no effort into the game and would rather watch tv than spend a hour a week practicing. Two of my teammates (my cousins) live less than two miles from my house and know they are welcomed to come and practice on my table any time, but make no effort.

Here are my two questions for you, as I am sure many of you have been in this sort of situation.

1) Did you notice an improvement in you game playing with and against others that are better and take the game just as serious as you?

2) How do you tell your family (cousins) and friend that you want to play on another team? I have rehearsed what I will tell them, but I feel anyway I word it, they are going to either feel hurt or insulted.

If I could, I would play two nights a week, one night with the guys I like and another night with some better players, but I can't right now.

Thanks,
Mattman

Click to expand...

I think it depends on how much better than you they are and how much you pay attention when you're just sitting. If you play somebody so much better than you that you never get to shoot, that's not good. You want to play somebody marginally better than you so you have to work really hard, but you still have incentive to work hard. If the reason the person is better than you is because of mental skills not physical ones, that is even better.

When I first entered the league I'm in now, I just walked in the place and said I wanted to play. Of course, they threw me on the worse team which nobody else wanted to play on. I very quickly rose to the top of the heap on that team. Since the league is unhandicapped, the format is the best on team A plays the best on team B, I was always playing the best players in the league. Some of them were much better than me, some were worse than me, but most were just a bit better than me or the same. I lost more games than I would have on a stronger team, but my game improved tremendously.

As far as telling your current team goes... just tell them you want to play better competition and that they are welcome to follow you to the better division, but you're going regardless. They are probably going to be PO'd regardless of what you say because they're losing they're best player, so why fret about what you'll say.

Matt

When I was 14, and wanted to learn, I watched the best 'money' players in town play for 6 months. Every good player had 2 or 3 things that they could do extremely well. I took it all in and emulated them once I picked a cue.
I also read 3 books on Pool, because I wanted to learn the 'right' way.

But I must say the biggest spark I had that year was when Jimmy Caras came to town for an exhibition, and listening to him. I was hooked after that.

Over the years, I have learned that you can learn from almost any player, whether they are better or not, but you learn more and faster playing better players than you are. The better players demand your concentration when you get to the table, each shot becomes more important, because 1 mistake can mean that you lose the game. You also stretch your ability or utilize all of your ability. This is similiar to the effect that gambling has on players too.
You never know what you can do until you try!

I played on leagues for almost 2 decades. Now (other than subbing on my brother's team), I won't play on a team that doesn't have a legitimate shot at 1st place in the league. I am not interested in 2nd or 3rd or 4th, those days are past. I want to play with team members that can hold their own.

I have said goodbye to teams in the past. I used to Captain and Anchor most of the teams I was on. (Hoots) They will get over it. You want to excel in the sport, they don't. Get on a team where at least 2 other members are better than you, then go to work. Watch and learn, ask advice, work on any of your weaknesses. After playing for so long, I hardly practice anymore, except for a big tournament (64 players and up).

The best memories of playing league was when I played the very best players, or played with them on a team. The best league match I ever had was against Terry Young, 2 time National BCA Champion and owner of Rumors, when he ran 2 tables, I ran 2 tables, and the last game he missed a kick on the 8, and I ran out to beat him 38-37. Sure, it was only by 1 point, but it was a mightly big 1 point, and I have never forgotten it.

Later on I played on a Rumors team with Terry, Scott Brown, Jimmy, and Dave Parmetter in Vegas,and it was fun. 2001 was the last time I went to Vegas, but I won over 91% of my games there, and take it from me, that's pretty good for Vegas.

The other time I remember was playing against Paul Weigand, Jr. Brown, and a couple of other real good players, and I beat all of them in one night, including a darn good jump shot on the 8 ball against Jr..

The best leagues I played in were the advanced leagues (BCA). I later played on a team at Southrock with Jr., my buddy Jamie Sanders, me, and
Cass Engstrom (a sleeper for his average). We took 1st and won the session tournament they had a couple of times.

Get on a better team, you won't regret it.

I like to play players that are a little better than I am. If I play a player who is contantly running out I don't get to shoot. I am not putting quarters in the machine or paying the time for someone else to practice. If I play someone like me who is on occassion going to run out I know I cannot let up. If I play a weaker player I know I can get away with too many misses. I cannot judge my own ability if someone else cannot run two balls and I take 5 inning to win the game. Since being moved up to a 6 in APA I don't take anything for granted. If I cannot run out I try to play smart. I would not do this playing a 3 or 4.
If you are taking the game seriously try to get on a stronger team. This is not possible in the APA. The APA is designed for lower level players. Knowing this the better players sand bag to keep their ranking down. The APA limits the number of good players on a team.

I don't think there is any way to improve, really.

And if nobody you can find can beat you, you don't really need to improve in my book. And I hope I never play you without a massive outrageous spot!

You will only get better by stretching out. You pick up on their good habits and mannerisms, as well as their bad. You can actually see how to get from A to B instead of on television. YOU ONLY SOLIDIFY AND REINFORCE BAD HABITS BY PLAYING WITH NO PRESSURE OR HACKERS. I try to give up weight to those under me, even for beers. This keeps me from getting sloppy and "carefree" with the cueball. I don't mean to leave out the beginners, just those who don't take the game serious at all. Nothing is worse than playing someone who doesn't recognize that it took some skill to run out. Even worse, one who doesn't care at all, they're there to bs and drink. Hey, I like to drink and bs, but when the game begins, I also take it very personal. If you are a B player, spend two weeks on the road with a great player, and I guarantee you are a ball better when you get back. Hell, I feel a half ball better just by watching the US Open.