Workmanship

straightness

If you cannot consistently install straight pins and inserts; not only the work is substandard but maybe you should do all of us a favor and go do something else.

Mario

Great question Doc. I don't condemn someone for off center pins. It comes down to
1- How the cue was held while prepping for the pin. Even today I see it off center because people assume it's running true instead of using an indicator.
2- Sanding and mandrells can vary the end result. Not all mandrells are perfect and a lot of people make their own mandrells out of stainless instead of carbide. The reason of course is pricing.
3- Some makers use a pole sander with the mandrell attached. Even carbide, will eventually wear.
4- Stainless joints. How are they machined? Between centers? With the screw installed? It matters. Is the joint stable or is it being pushed away by the cutter?
I'm sure there's more variables.

Define off center. At what measurement is the pin not center anymore, as it relates to cues? To have a discussion like this, tolerance must be quantified. Nobody on the planet has a perfect 0.00000" pin fit. Even if they did, the shaft bore wouldn't be. We're working with wood.

In my shop, .002"-.003" is maximum run out where the cue build still goes without a hitch. I make shafts completely separate from the butts, and don't have to screw them on until the cue is completed. For me, not only does the shaft have to fit the butt flush and clean, the ring dashes have to line up as well. It's as close to idiot proof as can be and exactly repeatable. It has to be to maintain consistency from cue to cue. All that said, buy an after market shaft & see how often it fits on center, or how well faced it is. Hardly ever do they fit to my standards, and I know it's not because of my joint pin.

Chopdoc said:

I did define it. No, it does not need to be quantified.

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No you didn't. And yes it does. Discussing joint pin accuracy without defining the tolerance is ignorance, begging for miscommunication and confusion. Understand I'm not being contentious. I don't intend to argue. I'm merely stating that this discussion is pointless, therefore will be fruitless, if you refuse to apply a numerical value(definition) to the tolerances you speak of. Tolerance by its very definition as it pertains to machining is the measurement of range of acceptable inaccuracy. We're not discussing politics. We're discussing absolutes.

edit: I must note that I understand most end users do not understand or even care about defined tolerances. That's why I defined my own standard of tolerance for my cues. However, off center can mean something totally different to you than it does to somebody else, hence my insistence on quantification. Case in point, you state that you have a Joss that has shafts made over several decades by numerous makers that all fit, "the diameter is the same and they're all concentric". I would contest that. I have seen cues and shafts from all of those makers that do not fit concentric and same diameter, let alone mix matching among the three brands. That indicates that you & I have different standards, a different idea of what "concentric and same diameter" means. That's precisely why I asked for a quantification of tolerance, so that we all are on the same page, starting the conversation from the same place. Otherwise it's me trying to interpret your perception, relate it to everybody else's perception, create a general average, then answer the question technically. Impossible.

Here is a video on youtube that some A-hole posted, lol

When your Lathe is that accurate, you need to have a perfectly bored hole with a perfect Pin.

I threw out 20 pins this year because they were three thousands of an inch off. They were the self centering flat faced 3/8" x 10 pins with the centering barrel. Put the barrel into the lathe, measure at the top of the pin and wow, into the trash. Turn the pin around and measure the bottom, same thing.

Atlas sells great pins, two ten thousands of an inch off and that is most likely the chuck.


https://youtu.be/VBThrRTxDO8

Chopdoc said:

I guess I am just trying to understand the expectations of the users versus the men who do the work. What are the perspectives on the matter?

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IMO, the expectations of the user are as unique as the user. Same with the maker. I see guys playing with cues where the shaft:butt interface is horrible, but they don't seem to notice. They love their cues. I wonder to myself why the maker of the cue would send it out like that, only to realize that it's plenty good enough for that buyer, and that the maker himself may not see the fit as an issue, either. To be fair, I can look back at the moment my perception changed. I was playing a straight pool session with a friend who had a nice Mike Bender cue. He was proud as a peacock of the cue and was showing me how fine the workmanship was. I felt the joint interface & to my amazement, it was perfect. No ledge, no groove, nearly seamless. It blew me away and left such an impression that I always felt inadequate with my own work until I was able to achieve the same thing. Very, very, very few times have I encountered joint work as accurate as Mike's. Either that means other makers aren't as good, or simply that they don't think it's as big of a deal as I did/do. Apparently the end users enmasse do not, either, or they'd expect it from their makers.

Point being, back full circle, it's all reliant on individual perception. Each user will have their own individual idea of what is good and what is not. Likewise, each maker will have his own ideas. Without a quantified baseline, it's impossible to compare.

Chopdoc said:

Well, Mr Webb seemed to effectively address the matter without quantifying it.

I do understand your perspective on it. And I don't disagree. It's just not what I was after.


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Thank you Sir.

Chopdoc said:

Well, Mr Webb seemed to effectively address the matter without quantifying it.

I do understand your perspective on it. And I don't disagree. It's just not what I was after.


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Chopdoc said:

This leads me to a question for cuemakers.

Would you consider off center pins and/or inserts to be sub-standard wormanship?

I realize there is the issue of tolerances so let's just say off center in my question means as observed by an average user when they screw the cue together.

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My bad. I guess I read in here that you wanted to know what cue makers felt about off center joint pins, whether we thought it was substandard workmanship. I also think I saw where you acknowledge an issue with tolerances, but wished to dismiss it. In order to give an accurate answer, it would be nice to have a basis on what you mean by "off center". Pardon me for the attempt

Dipshit is a little strong lol. Two opinions looking passed one another is more likely Dare I say, "eclipse"?

qbilder said:

Define off center. At what measurement is the pin not center anymore, as it relates to cues? To have a discussion like this, tolerance must be quantified. Nobody on the planet has a perfect 0.00000" pin fit. Even if they did, the shaft bore wouldn't be. We're working with wood.

In my shop, .002"-.003" is maximum run out where the cue build still goes without a hitch. I make shafts completely separate from the butts, and don't have to screw them on until the cue is completed. For me, not only does the shaft have to fit the butt flush and clean, the ring dashes have to line up as well. It's as close to idiot proof as can be and exactly repeatable. It has to be to maintain consistency from cue to cue. All that said, buy an after market shaft & see how often it fits on center, or how well faced it is. Hardly ever do they fit to my standards, and I know it's not because of my joint pin.

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very practical explanation of what we all face-wood does not necessarily drill or bore .0000 true. Consistency is our mark to shoot for with minimum run out. I think your parameters are very practical!

Chopdoc said:

In the "old days" such things a slightly off center pins and/or inserts were pretty common. These days, with modern machinery and tolerances I think it is substantially less common. This is one of the things that helps make the market for shafts work.

An example I have is my Joss cues. All of the shafts I have are perfectly interchangeable. The diameter is the same and they are all concentric. The shafts I have and/or have tried span at least four decades. The makers of these shafts include Joss, Scruggs, and Stroud.

Several years ago in a discussion here a PI made brand of cues was criticized for off center pins. It was said this was one of the observable things that demonstrated the cues were of questionable quality and workmanship.

This leads me to a question for cuemakers.

Would you consider off center pins and/or inserts to be sub-standard wormanship?

I realize there is the issue of tolerances so let's just say off center in my question means as observed by an average user when they screw the cue together.

.

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Well, when Falcon consulted with Janes, Janes supplied them this lathe to do their joints and collars.
https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=215
Not exactly an affordable lathe .

The cues in PI are done a little differently. Most install the joint screw early and they taper the cue with the screw installed. FWIW.

JoeyInCali said:

Well, when Falcon consulted with Janes, Janes supplied them this lathe to do their joints and collars.
https://youtu.be/k_EL8yPt4aw?t=215
Not exactly an affordable lathe .

The cues in PI are done a little differently. Most install the joint screw early and they taper the cue with the screw installed. FWIW.

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I'd say that was pretty nice of Mr. Janes.

To be fair, you mentioned PI cues. This is kind of an apple and orange thing. The average cue maker in PI does not have the same standard of equipment available to them as we do. In fact I would bet that you would have to have more craftsmanship to build cues there then needed here simply because you have to make up for cruder equipment with trained hand skills. So maybe it could be said that in the end we produce better quality cues as a general statement but that doesn't mean we are better craftsman. Concentric joint work can be trumped with beautiful and well thought out design. In the end I think cues as a form of functional art the maker with the most creative mind wins over the maker who puts out the best quality in form of dimensional accuracy.

Canadian cue said:

To be fair, you mentioned PI cues. This is kind of an apple and orange thing. The average cue maker in PI does not have the same standard of equipment available to them as we do. In fact I would bet that you would have to have more craftsmanship to build cues there then needed here simply because you have to make up for cruder equipment with trained hand skills. So maybe it could be said that in the end we produce better quality cues as a general statement but that doesn't mean we are better craftsman. Concentric joint work can be trumped with beautiful and well thought out design. In the end I think cues as a form of functional art the maker with the most creative mind wins over the maker who puts out the best quality in form of dimensional accuracy.

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Most don't even have a taper machine there.
https://youtu.be/sJ9Gqiu-XRk?t=58