Double Elimination is BROKEN

Island Drive · Dec 1, 2013

Double elimination...it's not good for the sport. Pool Needs to play sets, two outta three or three outta five....PERIOD.

Dbl/Elimination.... It's only good for the whiners and for the those that got a bad roll....DBL elimination Keeps more people in the room to spend money the first day and into the wee hours...............Last match START times are often 12-14 HOURS away from initial start time. If the tournament is an Hour away, you must get up at LEAST two to three hours before play starts to eat/shower and get in some practice before play starts, and the proverbial Player Meeting, and Calcutta in some states. A normal first day of play can Easily be a 15 hour day, WHO BENEFITS???????????????????????? Who preforms well after being up that long????

AS a Player,
You need to be at the pool room at Least one hour before Play starts, and after the draw you STILL are Unable to nail down when you play, if not in the first round, the second, or the third or????????????

Pool MUST Follow the formatting of TENNIS....Many are unable to fall into line with the Sleep patterns semi pro events create, it's at the Root of the problem, and I'm SURE why some turnouts are not as Expected. Formatting and event design are Flawed and are geared more towards the business model than the game itself. Players are always looking for an ANGLE as are businesses, they both are Complicit when this matter is looked at from a Real perspective of ''the game'', which seldom if Ever comes before room owner and a gamblers mindset.

Playing sets...scheduling and match TIMES can be controlled.....

Mark Griffin · Dec 1, 2013

Double elimination?

I have had many discussions on a 'tennis ' format.

If a good seeding system was in place it would be better.

Double slim has some value as does round robin in preliminary rounds.

Mark Griffin

chefjeff · Dec 1, 2013

Those reasons are why I rarely play in tourneys anymore.

I always thought the first race/round should be longer, then ALL the subsequent races should be very very short (to 2 at most) and if the finals has the time it could be lengthened to what would get everyone out of the place by midnight, IF they wanted to get home, re work, wife, etc.

Jeff Livingston

336Robin · Dec 1, 2013

Modified Round Robin

Island Drive said:
Double elimination...it's not good for the sport. Pool Needs to play sets, two outta three or three outta five....PERIOD.

Dbl/Elimination.... It's only good for the whiners and for the those that got a bad roll....DBL elimination Keeps more people in the room to spend money the first day and into the wee hours...............Last match START times are often 12-14 away from initial start time. If the tournament is an Hour away, you must get up at LEAST two to three hours before play starts to eat/shower and get in some practice before play starts, and the proverbial Player Meeting, and Calcutta in some states. A normal first day of play can Easily be a 15 hour day, WHO BENEFITS???????????????????????? Who preforms well after being up that long????

AS a Player,
You need to be at the pool room at Least one hour before Play starts, and after the draw you STILL are Unable to nail down when you play, if not in the first round, the second, or the third or????????????

Pool MUST Follow the formatting of TENNIS....Many are unable to fall into line with the Sleep patterns semi pro events create, it's at the Root of the problem, and I'm SURE why some turnouts are not as Expected. Formatting and event design are Flawed and are geared more towards the business model than the game itself. Players are always looking for an ANGLE as are businesses, they both are Complicit when this matter is looked at from a Real perspective of ''the game'', which seldom if Ever comes before room owner and a gamblers mindset.

Playing sets...scheduling and match TIMES can be controlled.....

I don't agree with everything you said but I have no interest in Double Elimination it does not offer me enough pool for it to be worth the money. I would be better off playing someone for $5 a game and going home when I want to. That ought to tell you a lot.

I have spent a good bit of time looking at the Modified Round Robin format and it can be used to provide a value of playing time and multiple contestants. I see it as an nice alternative to Double or Single.

Island Drive · Dec 1, 2013

Mark Griffin said:
I have had many discussions on a 'tennis ' format.

If a good seeding system was in place it would be better.

Double slim has some value as does round robin in preliminary rounds.

Mark Griffin

An example, this coming weekend, in Pueblo a Str8 shots event. $2,500 added + Calcutta starts at 6pm, they usually get Calcutta in the five figures, and play won't start till that's over. Everyone will have to play in the first round, and the room closes at 2am. I'm guessing Sat. play begins at 11am the same morning as when the Friday/now Saturday events are starting up. The BIG league end of year events are different and geared towards a different thinking and everyone that is there, easily can go back to the room to rest etc. A large venue could also diminish equipment and other costs by having to Haul less equipment and less set up time and less room size and all that. I started your thinking about sets a long time ago Mark ''Colorado Express'', what can it hurt to implement? I truly wanted to play in our Pueblo up/coming this next weekend event, but the Unknown and the length of ''hangin' around'' time are only for youth or hard core gamblers, so I'm not going, sadly. And ironically NONE Of the great pueblo players went to Ft. Collins this past weekend, there must be a reason. And there's another in Denver this Jan. 3K added and it will be the samo/samo, I regretfully will not go because of its design. Some things need change, tennis has it right, it works, it's simple and only improvements they have needed to make are in other areas, but NOT the Format.

Remember Mark, I'm assuming your discussions are normally with Hard Core Pool Player Thinking, of which I was on board for many years, but now, like yourself see matters in a different light, as time and ones energy get beaten down by the samo/samo.

Rain-Man · Dec 1, 2013

I agree completely.. I HATE the extreme length of time your there for tournaments.. I don't know what the fix or best alternate way is, but I'm all for a different format..

Island Drive · Dec 1, 2013

Lets Start treating Pool like a Sport

If we want to make pool a legitimate sport we must treat it like one....

“COLORADO EXPRESS”

Single elimination:

Five minute break between sets

Sets….best 2 outta 3 or 3 out of 5….Race to 2 or3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7, TD’s choice…

Lag for who breaks first set....then alternate breaker/racker

Alternate breaker for each set

Alternate racker for each set

Do this till match ends

Use Magic Rack and break from Head Spot Only

If both players are tied at two sets apiece, tiebreaker (like tennis) in effect. Then lag for break and alternate break with first breaker breaking one rack, then opponent breaks two, and two to other opponent till the end.

Final Match race to 9….must win by 2 games or first to 11. Or some other length

Finals could be played on two tables, side by side. Have racker rack the second table immediately after first tables rack is completed to speed up breaking of second rack of breakers turn at the table.

24 second shot clock, one 24 second extension allowed per rack

Bathroom break, one per match, Not allowed during opponents inning at table, exceptions….see TD

I’m sure other small details will come up, but this could also be done in a Single Elimination format, best 3 Sets out of 5, races to 3, total number of possible games played in this situation could be 17, and would probably take less time overall than the other dbl elim format.

Of course all of the above can be Tweaked.

Bob Jewett · Dec 1, 2013

Here is a format that has worked around here. It is for a weekend tournament. It's usually called "single elimination with buyback". It works best if the matches are handicapped but that's not required.

Saturday: All play is in mini-groups of 8 players, single elimination. Play can start as soon as you have 16 or 24 players present. The tournament does not have to wait for stragglers. Each group of 8 plays straight through to one winner. That winner comes back on Sunday. He can go home until then or match up or watch.

The second-place finisher in the group of eight gets his entry fee back. He and all the earlier losers in the group can re-enter for the same entry fee and get drawn into new groups of eight. Those re-entries and the late comers are drawn into new groups of eight. If you lose in a mini and want to go have dinner before getting back into the draw, that's fine. Minis continue until you can't get at least four players to sign up.

Sunday: Everyone shows up about 1PM. I suppose you could do a calcutta then since you will know who is playing. This part is single elimination with players seeded in according to how early they qualified -- earliest to qualify has the best chance of a bye.

macguy · Dec 1, 2013

Island Drive said:
Double elimination...it's not good for the sport. Pool Needs to play sets, two outta three or three outta five....PERIOD.

Dbl/Elimination.... It's only good for the whiners and for the those that got a bad roll....DBL elimination Keeps more people in the room to spend money the first day and into the wee hours...............Last match START times are often 12-14 away from initial start time. If the tournament is an Hour away, you must get up at LEAST two to three hours before play starts to eat/shower and get in some practice before play starts, and the proverbial Player Meeting, and Calcutta in some states. A normal first day of play can Easily be a 15 hour day, WHO BENEFITS???????????????????????? Who preforms well after being up that long????

AS a Player,
You need to be at the pool room at Least one hour before Play starts, and after the draw you STILL are Unable to nail down when you play, if not in the first round, the second, or the third or????????????

Pool MUST Follow the formatting of TENNIS....Many are unable to fall into line with the Sleep patterns semi pro events create, it's at the Root of the problem, and I'm SURE why some turnouts are not as Expected. Formatting and event design are Flawed and are geared more towards the business model than the game itself. Players are always looking for an ANGLE as are businesses, they both are Complicit when this matter is looked at from a Real perspective of ''the game'', which seldom if Ever comes before room owner and a gamblers mindset.

Playing sets...scheduling and match TIMES can be controlled.....

I played in tournaments in Europe that use a formal with more then one set. It is really good in many ways. I remember once playing in a tournament race to 7, 3 out of 5 sets. I lost the first set 7 to 1. No big deal I just composed myself and won the next three. If it was a double elim, once you are in the hole you are often done and it can happen against even an average player. It also provides for easy scheduling.

Here is the real deal though, pool has no real governing body. Promoters can do what ever they want as far as format. You learn real quick what works and what doesn't. If it works then it will spread. It really is more for the pros or at least better players. Many weaker players like the DE simply because if they get a bad draw they get a second chance to stay in the tournament even if they usually go 2 and out. They feel like they are in it for a while anyway.

I also like to play "win by 2". In other words you can play shorter sets and you never have the double hill games. I remember one tournament that Bill Steigal put on in Tampa like that. In one of the final matches Buddy Hall was playing Mike Sigel. The final score was 22 to 20 If I remember right. It had to be one of the most exciting matches I have ever seen as they traded leads. The audience became standing room only as it went on and when it was over I never heard that kind of applause at a pool tournament.

Grady was a good one for making up his own rules in tournaments. Who care your the one putting it on and often putting up the money, try what ever you think will work or improve things. You will know pretty quick is good.

336Robin · Dec 1, 2013

Bob Jewett said:
Here is a format that has worked around here. It is for a weekend tournament. It's usually called "single elimination with buyback". It works best if the matches are handicapped but that's not required.

Saturday: All play is in mini-groups of 8 players, single elimination. Play can start as soon as you have 16 or 24 players present. The tournament does not have to wait for stragglers. Each group of 8 plays straight through to one winner. That winner comes back on Sunday. He can go home until then or match up or watch.

The second-place finisher in the group of eight gets his entry fee back. He and all the earlier losers in the group can re-enter for the same entry fee and get drawn into new groups of eight. Those re-entries and the late comers are drawn into new groups of eight. If you lose in a mini and want to go have dinner before getting back into the draw, that's fine. Minis continue until you can't get at least four players to sign up.

Sunday: Everyone shows up about 1PM. I suppose you could do a calcutta then since you will know who is playing. This part is single elimination with players seeded in according to how early they qualified -- earliest to qualify has the best chance of a bye.

That's not a bad plan at all. I always felt that multiply single elimination boards was a simple solution. Im going to have to go over this one in my mind. I like it and its pretty simple. Buy back has been discussed around here for some time but no one really knew how to negotiate using the pools as you suggest. Its sort of a cross over using principles of round robin but taking less time. Not a bad plan at all. Thanks Bob.

JAM · Dec 1, 2013

This is quite an interesting thread and an excellent read. I don't have anything to contribute, but it's so refreshing to read. It is fun to engage in these kinds of friendly debates. Thanks to all who contributed! :smile:

Roger Long · Dec 1, 2013

JAM said:
This is quite an interesting thread and an excellent read. I don't have anything to contribute, but it's so refreshing to read. It is fun to engage in these kinds of friendly debates. Thanks to all who contributed! :smile:

I agree with JAM, but I also agree with everyone else.

Double elimination is definitely broke...for ME. But I'm an old man with a family that I want to get home to and a work schedule that requires me to get up early, so I don't want to be at a pool tournament until all hours of the day and night (whether it be for playing or for spectating). However, there are others with totally different situations, and they totally love D/E.

I like what macguy said. Everyone is free to try whatever they want to try, and they will soon find out what works best for them. Bill's Colorado Express warrants a serious look. So does Bob Jewett's buy-back format.

Roger

Rain-Man · Dec 1, 2013

Roger Long said:
I agree with JAM, but I also agree with everyone else.

Double elimination is definitely broke...for ME. But I'm an old man with a family that I want to get home to and a work schedule that requires me to get up early, so I don't want to be at a pool tournament until all hours of the day and night (whether it be for playing or for spectating). However, there are others with totally different situations, and they totally love D/E.

I like what macguy said. Everyone is free to try whatever they want to try, and they will soon find out what works best for them. Bill's Colorado Express warrants a serious look. So does Bob Jewett's buy-back format.

Roger

I don't think you have to be an 'old' man Rodger to not like spending all day at a tournament.. I don't consider myself an old man (yet), but I also do not want to be there ALL day and ALL night. I'm 39, but I just despise the thought of being ANYWHERE other than home for 12-15 hours... Im holding a 9-ball tournament at my place in the beginning of January, nothing big, just a little something different for my local players to do. But I think I'm going to try and incorporate some of the suggestions brought up in this thread and see how it goes...

Rain-Man

Island Drive · Dec 1, 2013

Roger Long said:
I agree with JAM, but I also agree with everyone else.

Double elimination is definitely broke...for ME. But I'm an old man with a family that I want to get home to and a work schedule that requires me to get up early, so I don't want to be at a pool tournament until all hours of the day and night (whether it be for playing or for spectating). However, there are others with totally different situations, and they totally love D/E.

I like what macguy said. Everyone is free to try whatever they want to try, and they will soon find out what works best for them. Bill's Colorado Express warrants a serious look. So does Bob Jewett's buy-back format.

Roger

Your so right Rog, but it's still FUN to do it and win a few and we Know about those Braggin' rights (in a good way),

Tho with buyback, your scheduling can it be a fixed time?...If I was at a two day event it would be PERFECT if I knew....if I kept winning I would play four times, 11am 2pm 5pm and 8pm....then the next day twice at 1pm 5pm and finals at 8pm or thereabouts. And if ya don't have enough tables, have conjoining prequalifiers in other rooms within 50? miles and have the rooms rotate who gets the Last matches on Sunday....but my bet SAMO/SAMO hard core thinking will keep play and the game where it seems to scuttle.

Celtic · Dec 1, 2013

Mark Griffin said:
I have had many discussions on a 'tennis ' format.

If a good seeding system was in place it would be better.

Mark Griffin

I have always said that the tennis format of multiple sets, seeding, and win by two alternate break should be the model pool should move towards.

stillplayin · Dec 1, 2013

Do it like Derby

Redraw every round with 1 buy if an odd number of players. Totally fair and you never know who you will be playing. You can add buyback to increase the money for payouts.

Island Drive · Dec 1, 2013

Outside the BOX!!!!!!!!!!!

And WHY does a tournament have to take up an entire weekend? You could do the tennis format every Saturday over a 4 week period or something....NEW. Rooms not having Allot of tables could then accommodate a larger field, or you could play Singleton match rounds during the week on Wednesdays or and off league night HUMMMMM be nice to have MORE people in you business on an off night eh?

and start em at 7pm, Have just one round. Condense all rounds to the final day. It's time to CHANGE, people don't have the time like they used too, adjust, like one pocket to make it fair for all, working and not. We know the working people are EXTREMELY important to the success of an event....broke Dick PP's just don't cut it anymore for a successful venue and a good night for a business.

ironman · Dec 1, 2013

Island Drive said:
Double elimination...it's not good for the sport. Pool Needs to play sets, two outta three or three outta five....PERIOD.

Dbl/Elimination.... It's only good for the whiners and for the those that got a bad roll....DBL elimination Keeps more people in the room to spend money the first day and into the wee hours...............Last match START times are often 12-14 away from initial start time. If the tournament is an Hour away, you must get up at LEAST two to three hours before play starts to eat/shower and get in some practice before play starts, and the proverbial Player Meeting, and Calcutta in some states. A normal first day of play can Easily be a 15 hour day, WHO BENEFITS???????????????????????? Who preforms well after being up that long????

AS a Player,
You need to be at the pool room at Least one hour before Play starts, and after the draw you STILL are Unable to nail down when you play, if not in the first round, the second, or the third or????????????

Pool MUST Follow the formatting of TENNIS....Many are unable to fall into line with the Sleep patterns semi pro events create, it's at the Root of the problem, and I'm SURE why some turnouts are not as Expected. Formatting and event design are Flawed and are geared more towards the business model than the game itself. Players are always looking for an ANGLE as are businesses, they both are Complicit when this matter is looked at from a Real perspective of ''the game'', which seldom if Ever comes before room owner and a gamblers mindset.

Playing sets...scheduling and match TIMES can be controlled.....

Ok I heare qht you are sating, but how long would it take to run such an event?? P)Lus it greatly benfits the better p;layers whish is what TD's are tryng to avoid. NOthinig kills tourneys like the sme old winnere over and over again.

336Robin · Dec 1, 2013

Formats

On the subject of Formats:

Hold Several Round Robins at several different locations this could be done on Saturdays during slow time, have a time when people come play. When several Saturdays have passed and all the players have played each other tall up the scores

Matches, then games won then win/loss average...if there is a tie in games and win loss average then you break the tie by looking at the game where the 2 contesting players played...whoever won that..is promoted..... Promote half of the players, the other half are out and everyone played a lot of matches and they played on a Saturday when they basically wanted to.

The half of the players that promote go to a finals event and then you can choose the format again there...you can do it Modified Round Robin with races designed to finish in one day and promote the winners to a Single Elimination the following day on Sunday.

Island Drive · Dec 1, 2013

ironman said:
Ok I heare qht you are sating, but how long would it take to run such an event?? P)Lus it greatly benfits the better p;layers whish is what TD's are tryng to avoid. NOthinig kills tourneys like the sme old winnere over and over again.

Some leagues last for 1/3 of a year. Working peoples lives are very predictable during the week. People who work have MONEY....get other rooms involved and whittle it down. Just think of pool from another perspective. The current weekend events are what they are, since McChesney, Flloyd Baxter, the Viking Tour and others. Develop a points system, start in your state, work with other rooms, come up with a plan, try something different. Do Just the opposite of what we have had for EVER.

Double Elimination is BROKEN

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