Any Lighting Experts on AZB?

rexus31 · Aug 17, 2019

I'll be building a new light to match my Gold Crown 1 and I'm considering (2) 1'x4' LED panels as the light source (like the ones in the link below) instead of fluorescent fixtures.

https://www.build.com/litetronics-fp030uf150dl/s1401961?uid=3312162

In the light I previously built to match my old AMF table, I had 2 8' fluorescent fixtures with a total of 8 Philips Natural Light T8 bulbs rated at 5000K and 2750 Lumens. I'm not experienced with LED lighting and was hoping someone could steer me in the right direction. I'd like to achieve the same amount of light, same light color and temperature in an LED panel as the T8 bulbs I used previously. Do the Kelvens and Lumens match up one for one LED vs fluorescent? From what I've seen, LED lighting can much "brighter" and distort colors. I prefer a "natural" light. Will I get the same amount of light using (2) 1' x 4' panels as I did with (8) T8 fluorescent bulbs?

Rico · Aug 17, 2019

I have 3 2x2 led flat panels 3500 .GREAT LIGHTING. I used channeling for ceiling tiles for a frame .they fit end to end used white chain to match white frame. less than $200 invested.

slach · Aug 17, 2019

I made a light from 3 2'x2' LED panels (Home Depot, Metalux 4200 lumen/4000k, $59 each), hanging 40" over a 9' table. Measuring the lux values with a free light meter app on my iPhone I get 1000 in center of table, 700 at side pockets and 550 at corner pockets. Lighting very comfortable for me - bright, but not too bright and nice, natural looking 'color'. Lights up mostly the table without lighting up the whole room so you get an 'arena' type effect. Worked out pretty good, I'm happy.

Bob Jewett · Aug 17, 2019

slach said:
I made a light from 3 2'x2' LED panels (Home Depot, Metalux 4200 lumen/4000k, $59 each), hanging 40" over a 9' table. Measuring the lux values with a free light meter app on my iPhone I get 1000 in center of table, 700 at side pockets and 550 at corner pockets. Lighting very comfortable for me - bright, but not too bright and nice, natural looking 'color'. Lights up mostly the table without lighting up the whole room so you get an 'arena' type effect. Worked out pretty good, I'm happy.

I got a light meter for about $40 from Amazon. Maybe it's better than the iPhone app or maybe not. In any case I think it's good to measure the result of whatever lighting fixture is installed. Where I play some of the corners measure under 150 lux which is low compared to the 520 specified by the WPA. A six ball frozen to a dark green end rail can be a real challenge. The other problem with the lights is that there are no shades and the lights are fairly low so there is very bothersome glare.

Here is the "Lighting FAQ" thread that has several previous discussions:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=388551

slach · Aug 17, 2019

Can't vouch for the accuracy of the iPhone app I used, it was free, but I'm thinking it's pretty close. From the corners/side pockets I tilted the phone to point at the center of the light to get the maximum lux values. Not sure how your meter works, Bob, but maybe tilting it changes the readings?

Bob Jewett said:
I got a light meter for about $40 from Amazon. Maybe it's better than the iPhone app or maybe not. In any case I think it's good to measure the result of whatever lighting fixture is installed. Where I play some of the corners measure under 150 lux which is low compared to the 520 specified by the WPA. A six ball frozen to a dark green end rail can be a real challenge. The other problem with the lights is that there are no shades and the lights are fairly low so there is very bothersome glare.

Here is the "Lighting FAQ" thread that has several previous discussions:

https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=388551

frankncali · Aug 17, 2019

Anyone have any pictures of their final assembly? Thinking about building one for a 7 ft bar table. Not sure how many panels to use?

Jimmorrison · Aug 17, 2019

Definitely not an expert, but have read most of the lighting threads on here. Also, energy program at work has us swapping out all fixtures for leds. The glare from some of these is horrible. We had to go back and install dimmers on some. Multiple panels, mounted in a frame, dimmer switch for each panel. That would be way to go. Overkill for some, but would be ideal no matter what your room is like. Color of cloth, height of ceiling, windows, color of walls, etc could all be adjusted for.

Poolhall60561 · Aug 17, 2019

Basic, $300 for lights

No Dimmer, but that would be nice

slach · Aug 17, 2019

For a 7', 2 2'x2' panels may be OK, 3 will for sure light it up good. The panels I used are dimable, you need to wire in a 0-10v low voltage dimmer for that. Here's some pictures of mine, pretty basic butt-jointed walnut plywood frame with solid walnut edging for the panels to lay into. Not too hard a project if you're into a bit of wood working.

frankncali said:
Anyone have any pictures of their final assembly? Thinking about building one for a 7 ft bar table. Not sure how many panels to use?

lakeman77 · Aug 17, 2019

I have two 1x4 LED panels placed end to end. They are attached to the ceiling over my 9 ft table. Tons of good light.
Much better than the old Brunswick florescent light I had.

Bob Jewett · Aug 17, 2019

slach said:
Can't vouch for the accuracy of the iPhone app I used, it was free, but I'm thinking it's pretty close. From the corners/side pockets I tilted the phone to point at the center of the light to get the maximum lux values. Not sure how your meter works, Bob, but maybe tilting it changes the readings?

The meter (listed in the other thread) has a sort of dome over the sensor which I think is supposed to make it less sensitive to direction. I haven't tried tilting it.

frankncali · Aug 17, 2019

slach said:
For a 7', 2 2'x2' panels may be OK, 3 will for sure light it up good. The panels I used are dimable, you need to wire in a 0-10v low voltage dimmer for that. Here's some pictures of mine, pretty basic butt-jointed walnut plywood frame with solid walnut edging for the panels to lay into. Not too hard a project if you're into a bit of wood working.

Thanks!! It looks good and pretty simple

De420MadHatter · Aug 17, 2019

You can get LEDs in any spectrum, so yes it's possible to match color exactly.
You can buy dimmable LEDs so yes it possible to match lumens exactly.
One of the many beauties of LEDs.
They have done wonders in the hydroponics scene.
You're probably not going to run down to Lowes, buy shit off the shelf, and be able to match your old set up though.

Cron · Aug 17, 2019

rexus31 said:
Will I get the same amount of light using (2) 1' x 4' panels as I did with (8) T8 fluorescent bulbs?

No, but you mean just 4 T8's on 1 ballast right? Not 8 T8's on 1 Ballast?

If you mean 4 T8's on a ballast with F32T8's are equal to 1 1x4 led drop panel, then yes .... but no. You'll effectively have the same lumens, but LED's have a viewing angle, so you'll end up more like 1x4 LED panel will give you the same area as maybe 2 T12's.

Stay away from dimmable LEDs, they will change temperature past the regular 80%.

In the pictures above of the table, you'll notice "hot spots" are clearly seen (the bane of custom arcade products). I think all the diffusers that come in these panels are cheap throw away plastics, so spend about $20 on decent diffusing film or try to bounce the light.

Bouncing the light is better, but usually requires more room than anyone cares to use. This is why when you see those really nice LED billiard lights they are very high up and have angled edge panels. Doing that removes hot spots and also lets the light bounce off of the natural environment.

What you're about to do is in my opinion superior and vastly easier on eyes (especially old ones), but you might have to spend maybe $500. Go church out some indie movie sites and see how they handle it. Maybe check out a website like B&H and read descriptions in thier lighting section to see what the ultimate application is for various products.

If you're REALLY bored, you could make a custom one, check out digikey for that. I've made quite a few custom arcade products and I usually get them there (or Mouser, but they changed thier shipping costs about 8 years back, so DigiKey ia now better).

rexus31 · Aug 18, 2019

Cron said:
No, but you mean just 4 T8's on 1 ballast right? Not 8 T8's on 1 Ballast?

If you mean 4 T8's on a ballast with F32T8's are equal to 1 1x4 led drop panel, then yes .... but no. You'll effectively have the same lumens, but LED's have a viewing angle, so you'll end up more like 1x4 LED panel will give you the same area as maybe 2 T12's.

Stay away from dimmable LEDs, they will change temperature past the regular 80%.

In the pictures above of the table, you'll notice "hot spots" are clearly seen (the bane of custom arcade products). I think all the diffusers that come in these panels are cheap throw away plastics, so spend about $20 on decent diffusing film or try to bounce the light.

Bouncing the light is better, but usually requires more room than anyone cares to use. This is why when you see those really nice LED billiard lights they are very high up and have angled edge panels. Doing that removes hot spots and also lets the light bounce off of the natural environment.

What you're about to do is in my opinion superior and vastly easier on eyes (especially old ones), but you might have to spend maybe $500. Go church out some indie movie sites and see how they handle it. Maybe check out a website like B&H and read descriptions in thier lighting section to see what the ultimate application is for various products.

If you're REALLY bored, you could make a custom one, check out digikey for that. I've made quite a few custom arcade products and I usually get them there (or Mouser, but they changed thier shipping costs about 8 years back, so DigiKey ia now better).

Thanks, Cron. Yes, 4 bulbs per ballast; two fixtures in the light for a total of 8 bulbs. I did notice the hot spots in the pics above and it concerns me. I'll be making an enclosure similar to this one but the ascetics will match Gold Crown 1 aprons.

If I mount the 1x4 LED's to the top panel and use the same diffusers as the fixture above, will I get the same type of light coverage as seen in this pic?

I may just go with the fluorescents again.

Cron · Aug 18, 2019

It won't. The LED panels would have to be larger and require some diffusing film and some minor alterations. If you use a couple 2x4's about the same price and do a little with the diffusion, sure.

If you're making your own already, then make your own LED panel...

Here's a video of a someone basically gluing 3 different temperature LED strips on a sheet of aluminum with a PWM dimmer. Honestly, that is pretty much it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhbMnQt14_o

Supposing you followed the above video (or one similar), the only 2 alterations I would make besides the overall size is that I would also bend the aluminum and a whole at each end and middle for cameras. Maybe also spread the LED strips out some, as I wouldn't need all 3 color temperatures nor the more precise concentration you'd use in photography.

It sounds like you already understand what to do and know how easy it is, but will you do it

. Personally I wish I had the room to throw together a 4x8 LED panel, because then I'd have room for a 9 feet table

.

Total cost of the functional application wouldn't exceed $200. Now the cosmetics will push it, but that is all in the realm of your taste.

NOTE: The person in that video uses a CNC, but also shows how to do it by hand. However, if you don't have a 3D printer or have been thinking about getting one, the lowest cost and most functional one I can find is the TEVO Tarantula Pro (2019 model)... $200 (or $250 shipped+1 spool).

Good luck!

rexus31 · Aug 18, 2019

Thank you to everyone for your input. To me, it seems like LED's are touchy to get them "right" and I'm not in a position to fiddle with the lighting to get it right. I'm going to stick with the setup I'm familiar with and has given proven results.

mchnhed · Aug 19, 2019

Color Temp and Color Rendering Index

Color Temp and CRI are very important.
Most cheap led panels will use 5000k chips because they are inexpensive to produce.
But that Temp is way too blue and is hard on the eyes in the long run.

Color temperature: pick 3000K LED’s

Color temperature is a number that describes how "yellow" or "blue" a light's color is.

2700K is considered the same color as the classic incandescent light bulb

3000K is slightly bluer and is similar to halogen bulb light color, but still has a warm, inviting yellow color to it.

4000K is often called "neutral white" because it is neither blue nor yellow - and is the middle of the color temperature scale.

Anything over 5000K will appear blue-ish and would not be recommended for standard residential applications.

Lighting for your home is ultimately a personal choice, but we recommend starting with 3000K LED spotlights to test. If you think it's too yellow, you can switch to 3500K or 4000K. If you think it's too blue, you can switch to 2700K.

Most of these color temperatures are readily available from most manufacturers.

CRI: pick 80 or above

CRI is a bit tricky to understand because it is not immediately visible from just simply looking at an LED spotlight.

CRI is score ranging from 0 to 100 which measures how accurate objects appear under a light. The higher the score, the more accurate.

What does accurate really mean, anyway?

Let's say you are trying to light up a painting. An perfectly accurate LED spotlight would make the painting look exactly the same as it does under a halogen bulb.

An inaccurate (low CRI) LED spotlight, however, would make the painting look "off" - the colors might appear mismatched, washed out, or indistinguishable.

This is not limited to paintings or artwork. The appearance of furniture or food can also appear to be lacking in color and dull, if the LED spotlight has insufficient CRI.

Well, what is a sufficient CRI number?

We recommend purchasing LED’s with a minimum of 80 CRI.

For enhanced appearance, we recommend 90 CRI or above.

rexus31 · Aug 19, 2019

mchnhed said:
Color Temp and CRI are very important.
Most cheap led panels will use 5000k chips because they are inexpensive to produce.
But that Temp is way too blue and is hard on the eyes in the long run.

Color temperature: pick 3000K LED’s

Color temperature is a number that describes how "yellow" or "blue" a light's color is.

2700K is considered the same color as the classic incandescent light bulb

3000K is slightly bluer and is similar to halogen bulb light color, but still has a warm, inviting yellow color to it.

4000K is often called "neutral white" because it is neither blue nor yellow - and is the middle of the color temperature scale.

Anything over 5000K will appear blue-ish and would not be recommended for standard residential applications.

Lighting for your home is ultimately a personal choice, but we recommend starting with 3000K LED spotlights to test. If you think it's too yellow, you can switch to 3500K or 4000K. If you think it's too blue, you can switch to 2700K.

Most of these color temperatures are readily available from most manufacturers.

CRI: pick 80 or above

CRI is a bit tricky to understand because it is not immediately visible from just simply looking at an LED spotlight.

CRI is score ranging from 0 to 100 which measures how accurate objects appear under a light. The higher the score, the more accurate.

What does accurate really mean, anyway?

Let's say you are trying to light up a painting. An perfectly accurate LED spotlight would make the painting look exactly the same as it does under a halogen bulb.

An inaccurate (low CRI) LED spotlight, however, would make the painting look "off" - the colors might appear mismatched, washed out, or indistinguishable.

This is not limited to paintings or artwork. The appearance of furniture or food can also appear to be lacking in color and dull, if the LED spotlight has insufficient CRI.

Well, what is a sufficient CRI number?

We recommend purchasing LED’s with a minimum of 80 CRI.

For enhanced appearance, we recommend 90 CRI or above.

Excellent information and explanation. Thank you for taking the time to put that together,

Where do Lumens come into play?

I was very happy with the lighting from my old light using (8) Philips F32T80/TL850/Alto II T8 fluorescent bulbs with the following spec:

5000K
CRI: 82
Lumens: 2700

Once I build and hang the enclosure, I do not want to take it down and apart because I am unhappy with the LED lighting I chose. To my eye (based on the pics I've seen), LED's do not produce good lighting for a pool table; too many hot and cool spots. Cost is also a factor. I can get a couple of 8' fluorescent fixtures for $100 shipped and I already have the aforementioned T8 bulbs. I'm just not sold on the benefits and additional cost to "upgrade" to LED's.

mchnhed · Aug 19, 2019

You can add a diffuser panel under the lights to even up the hot/cool spots.

Lumens to watts table
Lumens Incandescent LED
375 lm 25 W 6.23 W
600 lm 40 W 10 W
900 lm 60 W 15 W
1125 lm 75 W 18.75 W
1500 lm 100 W 25 W
2250 lm 150 W 37.5 W
3000 lm 200 W 50 W

Try this calculator......https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/lumen-to-watt-calculator.html

Any Lighting Experts on AZB?

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