Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

mfinkelstein3 said:

My table is a 9' Gold Crown III from a pool room.

TDF = .936

TSF = 1.00
PSF = 5 1/8 0.90
PAF = 5 1/8 - 4 1/4 =7/8 1.04
PLF = 1 1/2 1.00

TDF = 1.00 x 0.90 x 1.04 x 1.00 = .936

Compared to the Diamond tables at Society Billiards and the Brunswicks at Amsterdam, my table plays a little soft, which is confirmed by the TDF.

Click to expand...

Thanks Mark. I get slightly different numbers for two of your factors:

mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" GC)

Here's the latest updated list:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' table -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24
dr_dave example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02
dzcues Gandy Big G -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 5/8":0.98 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
rexus31 friend GC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" GC)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" GC)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86
dr_dave example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82
dzcues Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76
dr_dave Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

SloMoHolic said:

The Valley 6' barboxes at my league's pool hall have the following dimensions:

6-foot table (Yes, SIX foot table)
Mouth: 4.5"
Throat: 4.5"
Shelf: 5/8"

I assumed a 6' table would have a TSF of 0.80 based on the available TSF factors.

TDF = 0.71

A 7' table has the foot spot 63" from the head rail. A 6' table has the spot 54" from the head rail. My cue is 58" long.

I believe this gives me the distinct honor of being on the very bottom of the list.

-Blake

Click to expand...

Blake,

Thank you for posting this "unusual" table. I think I will just expand the 7' category size range to include the 6' table size, giving a TSF of 0.85. Shots get shorter as the table shrinks, but the amount of "traffic" and clustering makes things more difficult. It's probably a "wash."

Thanks again for your enthusiastic participation in the thread. I appreciate it.

Here's the latest list with your table added:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' table -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24
dr_dave example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02
dzcues Gandy Big G -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 5/8":0.98 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
rexus31 friend GC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" GC)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" GC)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86
dr_dave example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82
SloMoHolic 6' Valley "bar box" -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77
dzcues Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76
dr_dave Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

Mooneye said:

Dr Dave, If the pocket mouth size is the same on a 6' as on a 9', say 4.5", is the probability of a scratch a factor in table difficulty or is it negligible? Also. and I'm not sure of the right way to ask this, assuming ball size is the same, would the ratio of the area taken up by the balls to the area of the table surface, be a measurable factor in table difficulty?

Click to expand...

Everything, including this stuff, is built into how the table size factors were decided.

The extra crowding, clusters, and "traffic" that occur on a smaller table offset the fact that shot distances are smaller. That's why the TSF for 7' table (bar box) is 0.85 and not somethings like 0.75.

Regards,
Dave

Bob Dixon said:

I'm not going to read 20 pages to see if someone already did this so here is the TDF I come up with for the money table in the pit at Pool sharks, Las Vegas using the second protocol (first revision; I'm not going to check for additional revisions, either).

The corner pockets are 4" at the mouth. I'm assuming that extending the rails slightly also makes the shelf more shallow by this measurement protocol because the points of the mouth are moved slightly inward. That kind of makes sense because there is less shelf there for the ball to sit on but it also doesn't make sense because the part of the shelf that is most responsible from preventing a ball from dropping is right in the middle of the pocket and that part is located right where it was before the points of the mouth moved in.

Another issue- the most common mouth sizes (4", 4 14", 4 1/2") are each at the lower part of a range. They should be right in the middle of some factor. Under the current protocol if it's 3 15/16" it's a 1.20 factor. If it's 4" it's a 1.10 factor, the same as a mouth of 4 1/4".

Anyway: for a pocket mouth of 4" I used a PSF of 1.15 which is halfway between a low of 3 3/4" and a high of 4 1/4".

for pocket mouth-throat difference a measurement of 4" - 3 1/2" produces a PAF of 1.00

for a pocket shelf depth of 1 3/8" I get a PLF of .95 (I'm ambivalent about this having been measured accurately)

TDF = 1.0925

Click to expand...

Thank you for posting!

FYI, I get the following based on your measurements:

Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)

I always use the current version of the TDF system (as defined in the first post of the thread and in the current version of online the TDF document). If and when there are revisions, I update all of the results for all of the previously-collected data.


Here's the latest updated list:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' table -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted to be be a pool table)
dr_dave example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02
dzcues Gandy Big G -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 5/8":0.98 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
rexus31 friend GC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" GC)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" GC)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86
dr_dave example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82
SloMoHolic 6' Valley "bar box" -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77
dzcues Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76
dr_dave Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

Bob Dixon said:

Oh, OK. The whole list was 3 posts up. But I doubt this:
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)

Is 1 3/4" the shelf on a standard Diamond? I get 1 3/8" with 4" pockets. If I measured wrong and it's actually 1 1/2" (the max it could possibly be) I still get a PLF of .95. In other words the wider pockets are harder. No way. Ask anyone who has played on a table with 4" corner pockets and the standard Diamond pocket facing angle.

- - - - - -

Edit: I see now from an earlier post that the cushions are wider on cigardave's table which would make the shelf deeper. But how does he get a mouth-throat difference of 1"? The pocket facings look parallel or very close to parallel in the photo. That's definitely not a 3 1/2" throat.

I see SloMoHolic posted a standard Diamond with a shelf of 1 3/8" on a 4 1/2" mouth. If that's correct then a shelf of 1 3/8" that I measured with a 4" mouth can't be correct since the mouth would move inward.

Click to expand...

The pocket mouth, throat, and shelf can all vary among different Diamonds based on the thickness of the cushions and how the facings are cut and/or shimmed. Hopefully, others with access to Diamonds will post measurements or check and correct previously-posted values.

Bob Dixon said:

I'm wondering now about the whole method used here. The crucial factors are the width of the mouth and the angle of the facings. On the second factor, the angle of the facings, what has to be determined is if a ball rebounding off the facing from different angles will have shelf underneath it at the angle it rebounds from each incoming angle (nominally 270 incoming angles). If there is shelf underneath the rebound angle the incoming ball will hit the opposite facing and the more the facings are angled outward the more likely the ball is to be rejected. Parallel facings will cause a ball to continue moving toward the drop off from most angles after hitting the second facing. Outward angled facings will do the opposite. In other words, what needs to be determined is what percentage of the incoming angles will produce a pocketed ball.

Having said that, I also think most (if not all) balls that "rattle" do so because the cushion was touched prior to mouth entry. More of these will drop on a soft table than on a hard table. That would mean angles coming off the cushion are what typically frustrates players and that there are more than 270 angles to measure and the angles beyond 270 degrees incoming are actually the more relevant angles.

Does that make any sense?

Click to expand...

All of that makes sense, and the factors take all of this (and more) into consideration. The factors represent averages over a wide range of shots. They don't apply to any specific shot types, angles or speeds. The TDF is a rough approximation that applies to a wide range of shots, allowing one to easily and quickly (with only 3 measurements) get a relative comparison of difficulty level among different tables without actually playing on all of them.

Thanks for you input and feedback,
Dave

Vahmurka said:

I've just measured a couple of Brunswick Centurion tables in a local hall and the results are EXACTLY the same. They are just short of being average according to TDF, and that's true.

Click to expand...

FYI, I've added this to the list (see below).

Vahmurka said:

High humidity usually makes them tougher.

Click to expand...

Conditions definitely change things; but that is true for any table, and it is not always under our control.

Vahmurka said:

* I suggest Dave edits the first post of this thread to keep a list. OR create a separate thread for TDF listings. That way it would be easier to find the info.

Click to expand...

Great idea. I have table info posted with some of the data (see below). For all future posts, I will include the table brand and model (and other) info with the TDF data (if it is provided). Also, when I can find the time, I will look back through the thread and add any table info that has already been provided. If previous posters have not specified the brand and model of table, please do so by posting a reply, so I can add the info.

Thanks for the input,
Dave

Here's what I have so far:

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' table -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted to be be a pool table)
dr_dave example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example)
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02
dzcues Gandy Big G -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 5/8":0.98 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
rexus31 friend GC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" GC)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" GC III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example)
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82
SloMoHolic 6' Valley "bar box" -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77
dzcues Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76
dr_dave Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

JC said:

I heard Danny Diliberto state while commentating on the Bigfoot Challenge that he prefers 10 foot tables for most games because of the non clustering of balls. Not sure if that's a factor here or not. Dave said the 7' tables get some slack because they do cluster so shouldn't the 10' get the opposite?

Click to expand...

That is factored in. The smaller tables are given a little slack (i.e., the numbers aren't as low as they would be just taking shot distances into consideration) and the larger tables are given a little less slack (i.e., the numbers aren't as high as they would be otherwise).

Catch you later,
Dave

oldschool1478 said:

mamics pockets measured in Autocad.

Dan

Click to expand...

Thank you for doing this for people. The update numbers for mamics' table are below. Here's now at 0.90 (instead of 0.97 previously). It is important to take the measurements carefully (with or without Autocad).


Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' table -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted to be be a pool table)
dr_dave example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example)
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02
dzcues Gandy Big G -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
rexus31 friend GC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 15/16":0.95 -- 0.95
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" GC)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" GC III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 13/16":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 1/8":0.95 -- 0.90
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example)
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82
SloMoHolic 6' Valley "bar box" -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77
dzcues Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76
dr_dave Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

oldschool1478 said:

rexus31 pockets

The shelf radius is a bit hard to see, but I think I have it about right.

Dan

Click to expand...

Thanks again! That is great that you are willing and able to do this. I hope you don't get flooded with requests. If people are careful, their hand measurements are sufficient.

The rexus31 results did not change, but I've updated the numbers anyway (see below).

Good job with your measurements rexus31!

Best regards,
Dave


Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' table -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted to be be a pool table)
dr_dave example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example)
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02
dzcues Gandy Big G -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":0.98 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.96
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 13/16":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 1/8":0.95 -- 0.90
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example)
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82
SloMoHolic 6' Valley "bar box" -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77
dzcues Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76
dr_dave Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")

JC said:

Not that it matters much but the psf on my table is listed incorrectly at .98

Should be 1.0

JC

Also it's a "Cobrasized" gold crown 3, interpreted through the tools of the artist known as "Sundown Donny"! (in a couple weeks time I might add)

Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing out the error. I've corrected it and added your table info (see below).

Thanks again,
Dave

Data reported by AZB users in table difficulty factor (TDF) order, based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):

name -- TSF -- PSF -- PAF -- PLF -- TDF
tough 10' table -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.33 (fictitious example)
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.15 -- 2 1/2": 1.15 -- 1.24 (snooker table poorly converted to be be a pool table)
dr_dave example "B" -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.24 (fictitious example)
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.20 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.14 (Bonus Ball table)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.12 ("money table" Diamond at Pool Sharks in Vegas)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.10
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.11
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.09
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.09
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.08 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.08 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.95 -- 1 1/8":1.14 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.03
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02
dzcues Gandy Big G -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.95 -- 15/16":1.08 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.01
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 7/8":1.02 -- 1.00 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 ("standard")
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/4:1.00 -- 1.00
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.98 ("Cobrasized" Gold Crown III)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (typical Gold Crown)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/16":1.05 -- 1/4":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.95 (Gold Crown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.10 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.93
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 1":1.06 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.93 ("loose" Gold Crown)
MSchaffer -- 9":1.00 -- 5 1/10":0.90 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.92
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 ("loose" Gold Crown III)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.90 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.90 (Brunswick Centurion)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 13/16":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 1/8":0.95 -- 0.90
SloMoHolic league table -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.90
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.87
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.86 (Connelly)
dr_dave example "A" -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.95 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.82 (fictitious example)
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/4":0.98 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.82
SloMoHolic 6' Valley "bar box" -- 6':0.85 -- 4.5":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77
dzcues Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.76
dr_dave Valley "bar box" -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.94 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.76 (typical Valley/Dynamo "bar box")