Thanks Dave, I'll check out the links.
Here's a mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") and an Excel spreadsheet for automatically calculating the TDF factor from three pocket measurements to determine the difficulty level of a table.
Measurements and data reported by AZB users for table difficulty factor (TDF), based on the table size factor (TSF), pocket size factor (PSF), pocket angle factor (PAF), and pocket shelf factor (PLF):
name -- table_size:TSF -- pocket_mouth_sizeSF -- mouth-throat_differenceAF -- shelf_depthLF -- TDF (table description)
Vahmurka -- 12':1.25 -- 7.2cm:1.55 -- 125deg:0.97 -- 25mm:0.98 -- 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
dr_dave -- 10':1.10 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.39 (fictitious tough 10' table example)
Bob Dixon -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 145deg:1.14 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 2 1/8":1.07 -- 1.34 (fictitious example "B")
Ricky Sy -- 9':1.00 -- 3 3/4":1.31 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 5/8":0.98 -- 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
Bonus Ball -- 9':1.00 -- 3 7/8":1.25 -- 1/8":0.97 -- 3/4":0.98 -- 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 7/16":1.05 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 7/8":1.05 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Qaddiction -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.16 (Diamond)
rexus31 -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 3/8":0.98 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 1":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE -- 9':1.00 -- 4":1.20 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 7/8":0.98 -- 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Mikjary -- 9'-1.00 -- 4":1.15 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/16":0.98 -- 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
Ralph Kramden -- 9':1.0 -- 4 5/16":1.05 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/16":1.10 -- 7/16":0.99 -- 1 7/8":1.03 -- 1.12 (unknown)
Neil -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/8":1.15 -- 1 1/4":1.14 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna -- 10':1.10 -- 5 1/2":0.85 -- 2":1.09 -- 2 1/2": 1.07 -- 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 0.45":0.99 -- 1 5/16":0.99 -- 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16:1.00 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
Side Pocket -- 10':1.10 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 1/4":0.97 -- 15/16":0.98 -- 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
SloMoHolic -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 2 1//8":1.05 -- 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/16":1.00 -- 9/16":1.00 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
Goldball -- 8':0.90 -- 12.2cm:0.91 -- 4cm:1.14 -- 5.4cm:1.07 -- 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/8":0.99 -- 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0.625":1.00 -- 1.5":0.98 -- 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds -- 8'+: 0.95 -- 4.9":0.91 -- 1.1":1.1 -- 1.8" 1.03 -- 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 1/2": 0.98 -- 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg)
BryanB -- 9':1.00 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis -- 9':1.00 -- 10.9cm:1.05 -- 1cm:0.97 -- 3.1cm:0.95 -- 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.0 -- 12.5cm:0.91 -- 20mm:1.04 -- 45mm:1.03 -- 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics -- 9':1.00 -- 4 11/16":0.95 -- 143deg:1.07 -- 1 3/16":0.95 -- 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 11/16":1.02 -- 1 15/16":1.03 -- 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 1/5":0.98 -- 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues -- 9':1.00 -- 5":0.91 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets -- 8'+:0.95 -- 5":0.91 -- 1 1/8":1.10 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner -- 8'+/-:0.925 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1":0.95 -- 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 -- 9':1.00 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 1 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle -- 9':1.00 -- 13.1cm:0.88 -- 2.2cm:1.03 -- 4.3cm:1.00 -- 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie -- 9':1.00 -- 11.5cm:0.95 -- 138.7deg:0.98 -- 3.5cm:0.98 -- 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 1":1.05 -- 1 1/2":0.97 -- 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU -- 9':1.00 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka -- 9':1.00 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 7/8":1.03 -- 1 1/2": 0.97 -- 0.88 (GC)
Dopc -- 8':0.90 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan -- 9':1.0 -- 5": 0.88 -- 3/4":1.01 -- 1.5":0.97 -- 0.86 (GC)
SloMoHolic -- 8'+:0.95 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 7/8":1.04 -- 1 1/4":0.95 -- 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot -- 7':0.85 -- 4 3/8":1.05 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 0.85 (custom-made)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 4 3/4":0.95 -- 5/8":1.00 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 13/16":1.04 -- 1 1/2":0.98 -- 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
jtaylor996 -- 7':0.85 -- 5 1/8":0.88 -- 146deg:1.09 -- 1.51":1.00 -- 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
dr_dave -- 8':0.90 -- 5":0.91 -- 1/2":0.98 -- 1 3/8":0.98 -- 0.79 (fictitious 8' example "A")
Mooneye -- 7':0.85 -- 4 7/8":0.91 -- 3/4":1.02 -- 1 5/8":1.00 -- 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic -- 6':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 5/8":0.95 -- 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 1/2":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave -- 7':0.85 -- 4 1/2":1.00 -- 0":0.95 -- 3/4":0.95 -- 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)
I am happy to announce that I got my new table delivered and installed yesterday:
dr_dave -- 9':1.00 -- 5": 0.91 -- 1":1.07 -- 1 1/5":0.98 -- 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
It has brand new, really tight, Simonis 860HR. I can't wait to try the Corey Deuel draw shot. It should be a "piece of cake." I should also now have no trouble getting a 10 on the BU Exam I draw drill every time (this was really tough with the slow, sticky cloth on my previous table).
I am happy to announce that I got my new table delivered and installed yesterday:
Thanks! I'm pretty excited about it, especially being able to graduate to the BU Doctorate level.Looking forward to watching you play on your new table. Congratulations :thumbup:
Please post all of the new pocket dimensions and run your TDF calculation (or I can do that for you). All of the numbers should be different now with your modifications.I just tightened up my pockets on my 10 foot Brunswick.
Here is a video showing the pocket size. Everything else is the same except the shelf is 3/16 deeper.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKl6yZkoP0c
Please post all of the new pocket dimensions and run your TDF calculation (or I can do that for you). All of the numbers should be different now with your modifications.
Catch you later,
Dave
PS: Now, if you can beat your previous best BU Exam scores on this modified table, I will really, really by impressed. Good luck!
I've added an entry for your modified table to the list. Here's the entry:I'll get the measurements on video for you sometime today. I did measure the mouth and throat this morning and the mouth measured 4 1/2 - 4 3/8" and the throat measured 3 1/2". You can determine that when I send you the link to the video.
Actually, the increase in shelf depth should be about 1.4 times the rail shift (from trigonometry), but you can measure it to be sure.The depth on the shelf should be 3/16" deeper being all rails are 3/16" farther in.
See the table difficulty factor (TDF) document to see what effects different changes have. Or just plug different numbers into the mobile-friendly online TDF tool (created by "Isaac").When I modify my shelf is 2" - 2 1/4" a strong depth? Is that too much or not enough? I want my table to play more difficult than a 9' Diamond pro cut.
I've added an entry for your modified table to the list. Here's the entry:
Side Pocket -- 10':1.10 -- 4 7/16":1.0 -- 15/16":1.07 -- 1 3/4":1.0 -- 1.18 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
Actually, the increase in shelf depth should be about 1.4 times the rail shift (from trigonometry), but you can measure it to be sure.
See the table difficulty factor (TDF) document to see what effects different changes have. Or just plug different numbers into the mobile-friendly online TDF tool (created by "Isaac").
Regards,
Dave
Wow! That makes your table really tough now. Here's the edited entry:Dave, I was able to squeeze the pockets down to 4 1/4". The taper is the same 15/16". Here is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6CiU41__48&feature=youtu.be
Wow! That makes your table really tough now. Here's the edited entry:
Side Pocket -- 10':1.10 -- 4 1/4":1.10 -- 15/16":1.09 -- 1 3/4":1.00 -- 1.32 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
That is way tougher than a typical pro-cut 9' Diamond (TDF = about 1.07)
Catch you later,
Dave
Dave,
I ended up extending the shelf depth in the corner pockets. Here is a video showing how I did it and all the measurements. The difference in the mouth and throat is 3/4" see video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE2xYl4Pf9U&feature=youtu.be
Can't wait to video a few table runs.
Cheers
Here is a demo video of me shooting some balls showing how the corner pockets rattle now. The table plays really tough now and I can't wait to see how it improves my game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0yVWfhQb_I&feature=youtu.be
You'll need to aim at the far sides of your corner pockets with those tight pockets.
Do the balls hang on the shelves when they roll at slow speeds? Just wondering.
.
Based on the pocket angle factor (PAF) table, I've updated your info as follows:Looks like about 144-145°