Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

pw98 · May 14, 2020

I dont think this system is 100% accurate

Ok, here is my personal experience with TDF and two tables I have shot a lot on:

I have access to two tables:

1) An oversized 8 foot table with 4.25" corner pockets and 4.75" side pockets and TDF=1.03
2) A 10 foot table with all pockets 5" except one corner which is 4.5" and TDF=1.02 (with all corner pockets rated at 5")

On the 8 foot table very often I can throw out 7 balls and fairly consistently run them out with ball in hand. Sometimes, if I'm playing good, I can do so with 8 balls. Playing 6 ball on an average day I win about 75% of the time in a race to 7.

On the 10 foot table its another story. I've never really been able to consistently run out 7 balls with ball in hand for an extended period of time. I even have trouble beating the ghost at 6-ball at all.

I recently spent about 5 days straight playing on the 10 footer and I did see gradual improvement (I don't play on it very often and when I do its normally just for 2 days over a weekend).

Basically, from what I can see, the difficulty of table size has much more to do than just pocketing. Yes, overall the 10 footer's pockets are easier as they take balls not hit cleanly down the rails easier (except on the 4.5" pocket...) and allow more cheating of the pocket but when hitting the same shots on both tables on the 10 footer the shots need to be hit MUCH harder for shape which makes cueing accurately much harder. Also, speed and direction control are much harder on the 10 footer when one considers the shots are hit harder and that direction errors increase as the distance the cue ball travels increases.

This isn't even taking into account the biggest problem which is reach. I am only 5'8" which means that on the oversized 8 foot table I can reach 99% of the shots without stretching. On the 10 footer at least 10% of the shots I'm putting a good stretch into the shot which often causes a miss. The more I play on the 10 footer the better I seem to be getting at avoiding these reach shots, but the solution is often to take an even longer shot which doesn't make things much easier.

A solution to this reach problem problem seems to be to play center table shape much more often than I would on the 8 footer.

So, from the TDF scores, the tables should play almost exactly the same difficulty, but they don't. The 10 footer is MUCH more difficult (at least for me).

dr_dave · May 15, 2020

pw98 said:
Ok, here is my personal experience with TDF and two tables I have shot a lot on:

I have access to two tables:

1) An oversized 8 foot table with 4.25" corner pockets and 4.75" side pockets and TDF=1.03
2) A 10 foot table with all pockets 5" except one corner which is 4.5" and TDF=1.02 (with all corner pockets rated at 5")

Please post the detailed TDF info for both of these tables, and I'll add them to the list.

pw98 said:
On the 8 foot table very often I can throw out 7 balls and fairly consistently run them out with ball in hand. Sometimes, if I'm playing good, I can do so with 8 balls. Playing 6 ball on an average day I win about 75% of the time in a race to 7.

On the 10 foot table its another story. I've never really been able to consistently run out 7 balls with ball in hand for an extended period of time. I even have trouble beating the ghost at 6-ball at all.

I recently spent about 5 days straight playing on the 10 footer and I did see gradual improvement (I don't play on it very often and when I do its normally just for 2 days over a weekend).

Basically, from what I can see, the difficulty of table size has much more to do than just pocketing. Yes, overall the 10 footer's pockets are easier as they take balls not hit cleanly down the rails easier (except on the 4.5" pocket...) and allow more cheating of the pocket but when hitting the same shots on both tables on the 10 footer the shots need to be hit MUCH harder for shape which makes cueing accurately much harder. Also, speed and direction control are much harder on the 10 footer when one considers the shots are hit harder and that direction errors increase as the distance the cue ball travels increases.

This isn't even taking into account the biggest problem which is reach. I am only 5'8" which means that on the oversized 8 foot table I can reach 99% of the shots without stretching. On the 10 footer at least 10% of the shots I'm putting a good stretch into the shot which often causes a miss. The more I play on the 10 footer the better I seem to be getting at avoiding these reach shots, but the solution is often to take an even longer shot which doesn't make things much easier.

A solution to this reach problem problem seems to be to play center table shape much more often than I would on the 8 footer.

So, from the TDF scores, the tables should play almost exactly the same difficulty, but they don't. The 10 footer is MUCH more difficult (at least for me).

Thank you for sharing that. The TDF systems is definitely not perfect, and there are many other factors that contribute to how difficult a table actually plays (side pocket geometry, cloth type and condition, ball conditions, pocket facing and shim properties, rail and cushion conditions, table levelness, humidity, etc.); and as you point out, actual difficulty level will vary some from one person to the next. However, the TDF system provides a good average measure of table toughness with only a few measurements. For more info on how everything was decided, see:

Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) resource page

Thanks again,
Dave

ChrisinNC · May 16, 2020

pw98 said:
Ok, here is my personal experience with TDF and two tables I have shot a lot on:

I have access to two tables:

1) An oversized 8 foot table with 4.25" corner pockets and 4.75" side pockets and TDF=1.03
2) A 10 foot table with all pockets 5" except one corner which is 4.5" and TDF=1.02 (with all corner pockets rated at 5")

On the 8 foot table very often I can throw out 7 balls and fairly consistently run them out with ball in hand. Sometimes, if I'm playing good, I can do so with 8 balls. Playing 6 ball on an average day I win about 75% of the time in a race to 7.

On the 10 foot table its another story. I've never really been able to consistently run out 7 balls with ball in hand for an extended period of time. I even have trouble beating the ghost at 6-ball at all.

I recently spent about 5 days straight playing on the 10 footer and I did see gradual improvement (I don't play on it very often and when I do its normally just for 2 days over a weekend).

Basically, from what I can see, the difficulty of table size has much more to do than just pocketing. Yes, overall the 10 footer's pockets are easier as they take balls not hit cleanly down the rails easier (except on the 4.5" pocket...) and allow more cheating of the pocket but when hitting the same shots on both tables on the 10 footer the shots need to be hit MUCH harder for shape which makes cueing accurately much harder. Also, speed and direction control are much harder on the 10 footer when one considers the shots are hit harder and that direction errors increase as the distance the cue ball travels increases.

This isn't even taking into account the biggest problem which is reach. I am only 5'8" which means that on the oversized 8 foot table I can reach 99% of the shots without stretching. On the 10 footer at least 10% of the shots I'm putting a good stretch into the shot which often causes a miss. The more I play on the 10 footer the better I seem to be getting at avoiding these reach shots, but the solution is often to take an even longer shot which doesn't make things much easier.

A solution to this reach problem problem seems to be to play center table shape much more often than I would on the 8 footer.

So, from the TDF scores, the tables should play almost exactly the same difficulty, but they don't. The 10 footer is MUCH more difficult (at least for me).

Just curious as to why one of your 4 corner pockets on the 10-footer is 4.5 inches whereas the other 3 corners are 5 inches? For some reason could that be for practice purposes, or some kind of error made by the last installer who set up that table? Just seems very strange.

Jimmorrison · May 24, 2020

Modified Ruxton Billiard, 7' one piece slate .85, 3 7/8" 1.25, 7/16" .99, 3/4" .98, I got 103. Without the shallow shelf, it would be too tough for me

Dr. Dave, I got this table to run your drills. Thanks for all you do:thumbup:

dr_dave · May 25, 2020

Jimmorrison said:
Modified Ruxton Billiard, 7' one piece slate .85, 3 7/8" 1.25, 7/16" .99, 3/4" .98, I got 103. Without the shallow shelf, it would be too tough for me

FYI, I've added your table to the list.

Jimmorrison said:
Dr. Dave, I got this table to run your drills.

So should we expect some entries from you in the BU Exam Challenge?

Jimmorrison said:
Thanks for all you do:thumbup:

You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :grin-square:

Thank you for posting,
Dave

dr_dave · May 25, 2020

Here's the latest:

Calculate your Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) to determine how tough it plays in comparison to other tables. Only three pocket measurements are required, and you can use the mobile-friendly online tool (created by "Isaac") or an Excel spreadsheet to do the calculations.

Measurements and Data Reported by AZB Users:

username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size

SF, mouth-throat difference

AF, shelf depth

LF - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
CaptiveBred - 10':1.10, 4 1/8":1.15, >143.5deg:1.14, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.43 (10' Brunswick Anniversary re-machined to Diamond specs)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.1, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.22 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Baxter - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 143deg:1.09, 1 1/8":0.98 - 1.18 (Donny-Wessels-modified AMF Grand Prix)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 3 13/16":1.25, 9/16":1.00, 7/8":0.98 - 1.16 (modified 1935 Brunswick Challenger)
Tom Cruise - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/8":0.97, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.15 (Golden West)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (original 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.15, 5/8":1.0, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.13 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC - 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
Banger - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.04 (RKC-modified GC III)
Jimmorrison - 7':0.85, 3 7/8":1.25, 7/16":0.99, 3/4":0.98 - 1.03 (Modified Ruxton)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
kanzzo - 9':1.00, 11.4 cm:1.00, 1.7 cm:1.02, 3.3 cm:0.98 - 1.00 (Gold Crown V tournament edition)
coxcol15 - 7':0.85, 4.25":1.10, 1":1.09, 1.25":0.98 - 1.00 (Valley barbox w/ Ridgeback pro cuts)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
jviss - 9’:1.00, 4.98”:0.91, 0.76”:1.04, 1.625”:1.00 - 0.95 (GC I)
logical - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (GC II)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
sniggihs - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (7’ Diamond - Blue Label)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

Jimmorrison · May 25, 2020

Posting a video, of me shooting, would be quite a leap for me. I'll think about it.

Sean Hallett · Jun 2, 2020

To Dr Dave. I've noticed alot of people getting the less than and greater then values wrong when it falls exactly on the cut off point. For example for a Diamond pro am pocket of 4 1/2 inches i've seen values of 1 and 0.95. Would it not be better to get rid of the less than and greater than and just say if it falls in the cut off point then do a average of both values. In the example I listed above it would now be 0.975. You could use this approach for all values that fall right in the middle and it would be less of a cliff face between sizes. Just a thought that I think would make it better

garczar · Jun 2, 2020

Sean Hallett said:
To Dr Dave. I've noticed alot of people getting the less than and greater then values wrong when it falls exactly on the cut off point. For example for a Diamond pro am pocket of 4 1/2 inches i've seen values of 1 and 0.95. Would it not be better to get rid of the less than and greater than and just say if it falls in the cut off point then do a average of both values. In the example I listed above it would now be 0.975. You could use this approach for all values that fall right in the middle and it would be less of a cliff face between sizes. Just a thought that I think would make it better

Why would a ProCut Diamond be less than 1.00TDF?? 7ft or 9ft? We measured one(9ft ProAm) at the' hall and got 1.03 iirc. League-cut Diamonds usually are in the .96-.97 range.

dr_dave · Jun 2, 2020

Sean Hallett said:
To Dr Dave. I've noticed alot of people getting the less than and greater then values wrong when it falls exactly on the cut off point. For example for a Diamond pro am pocket of 4 1/2 inches i've seen values of 1 and 0.95. Would it not be better to get rid of the less than and greater than and just say if it falls in the cut off point then do a average of both values. In the example I listed above it would now be 0.975. You could use this approach for all values that fall right in the middle and it would be less of a cliff face between sizes. Just a thought that I think would make it better

Thank you for the suggestion, but if people use the mobile-friendly online tool or the Excel spreadsheet, there is no problem. I think a bigger problem is not making the measurements carefully and properly (according to the instructions and illustration) within an accuracy of 1/8".

Regards,
Dave

Call_me_Tom · Jun 7, 2020

ZD-4 Valley 7’ bar box with Penguin Pro rails shimmed to 4” and covered in 860HR.

Location: Tom’s Garage - San Jose CA
Pocket Mouth: 4”
Pocket Throat: 3.5”
Shelf Depth: 2”

dr_dave · Jun 8, 2020

Call_me_Tom said:
ZD-4 Valley 7’ bar box with Penguin Pro rails shimmed to 4” and covered in 860HR.

Location: Tom’s Garage - San Jose CA
Pocket Mouth: 4”
Pocket Throat: 3.5”
Shelf Depth: 2”

I entered your numbers into the online mobile-friendly TDF tool and added your info to the list:

Call_me_Tom - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.04 (Valley bar box with Penguin Pro rails)

Thanks for posting,
Dave

PS: That's a tough bar box!

dr_dave · Jun 8, 2020

Here's the latest:

Calculate your Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) to determine how tough it plays in comparison to other tables. Only three pocket measurements are required, and you can use the online mobile-friendly TDF calculator (created by "Isaac") or an TDF Excel spreadsheet calculator to get the results.

Measurements and Data Reported by AZB Users:

username - table size:TSF, pocket mouth size

SF, mouth-throat difference

AF, shelf depth

LF - TDF (table description)
Vahmurka - 12':1.25, 7.2cm:1.55, 125deg:0.97, 25mm:0.98 - 1.84 (12ft Russian pyramid table)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 1/4":1.10, 1 1/4":1.14, 2 1/4":1.07 - 1.48 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick, modified 9/2016)
CaptiveBred - 10':1.10, 4 1/8":1.15, >143.5deg:1.14, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.43 (10' Brunswick Anniversary re-machined to Diamond specs)
Bob Dixon - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 145deg:1.14, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.37 (Pool Sharks, Las Vegas, money table, Diamond Pro-Am, red logo, Ernesto Dominguez-modified)
gregcantrall - 10':1.10, 4":1.20, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2":0.99 - 1.31 (10 foot Diamond in the Sun City West, AZ Rec Center)
Ricky Sy - 9':1.00, 3 3/4":1.31, 1/4":0.97, 5/8":0.98 - 1.25 (money table at Hard Times in Bellflower, CA)
acedonkeyace - 9":1.00, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.22 (gamble table at sidePocket in Largo, Florida)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 1/4":1.1, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.22 (shimmed 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
Bonus Ball - 9':1.00, 3 7/8":1.25, 1/8":0.97, 3/4":0.98 - 1.19 (Bonus Ball table)
Marc Vidal - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/16":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (shimmed Brunswick Tournament Edition)
chevybob20 - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 7/8":1.05, 1":0.98 - 1.18 (Mark-Gregory-modified Centennial)
Baxter - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 143deg:1.09, 1 1/8":0.98 - 1.18 (Donny-Wessels-modified AMF Grand Prix)
Qaddiction - 9':1.00, 4 1/8":1.15, 3/4":1.02, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.16 (Diamond)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 3 13/16":1.25, 9/16":1.00, 7/8":0.98 - 1.16 (modified 1935 Brunswick Challenger)
Tom Cruise - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/8":0.97, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.15 (Golden West)
ChrisinNC - 10':1.1, 4 3/8":1.05, 11/16":1.02, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.15 (original 10' Gabriel Sentinel, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC)
rexus31 - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 3/8":0.98, 1":0.98 - 1.15 (mid to late 50's AMF Commercial Model similar to a Brunswick Anniversary/Sport King)
FatBoy - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 1":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
TATE - 9':1.00, 4":1.20, 1/4":0.97, 7/8":0.98 - 1.14 (Ernesto-Dominguez-modified GC)
Mikjary - 9'-1.00, 4":1.15, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/16":0.98 - 1.13 (Brunswick Centurion)
ChrisinNC - 9':1.0, 4 1/8":1.15, 5/8":1.0, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.13 (tightest Gabriel's Signature Pro, Ernesto Dominguez modified, at Family Billiards in Boone, NC - Table 7)
Cardigan Kid - 10'-1.10, 4.5":1.00, 0.88":1.04, 1.5":0.98 - 1.12 (Gold Crown from Steinway Billiards - Earl Strickland's former practice/match-up table)
Ralph Kramden - 9':1.0, 4 5/16":1.05, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.12 (1962 Nine foot Gold Crown 1)
pocket - 9':1.00 - 4 3/16":1.10, 7/16":0.99, 1 7/8":1.03 - 1.12 (unknown)
Neil - 7':0.85, 4 1/8":1.15, 1 1/4":1.14, 1 3/8":0.99 - 1.10 (modified Valley "bar box")
MahnaMahna - 10':1.10, 5 1/2":0.85, 2":1.09, 2 1/2": 1.07 - 1.09 (snooker table poorly converted into a pool table)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 0.45":0.99, 1 5/16":0.99 - 1.08 (GC II)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 4 7/16:1.00, 15/16":1.07, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.07 (GCII, RKC mod)
cigardave - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1":1.07, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.07 (typical Pro-Cut Diamond)
peppersauce - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 3/8":0.98, 1 1/4":0.98 - 1.06 (GC 3)
Side Pocket - 10':1.10, 4 7/8":0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 1.05 (10' 1920-1925 Brunswick)
Pool Hustler - 9':1.00, 4 1/4":1.10, 1/4":0.97, 15/16":0.98 - 1.05 (modified GC, measured by rexus31)
JC - 9':1.00 - 4 7/16":1.00, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.05 ("Cobrasized" GC III)
Banger - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 1.04 (RKC-modified GC III)
Call_me_Tom - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.04 (Valley bar box with Penguin Pro rails)
Jimmorrison - 7':0.85, 3 7/8":1.25, 7/16":0.99, 3/4":0.98 - 1.03 (Modified Ruxton)
SloMoHolic - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/8":0.98 - 1.02 (2005 Diamond Pro with ProCut pockets and Red-label rails)
CoreyClark - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 1":1.07, 2 1//8":1.05 - 1.02 (GC I)
"standard" table - 9':1.00, 4 7/16":1.00, 9/16":1.00, 1 5/8":1.00 - 1.00 (average-difficulty table)
kanzzo - 9':1.00, 11.4 cm:1.00, 1.7 cm:1.02, 3.3 cm:0.98 - 1.00 (Gold Crown V tournament edition)
coxcol15 - 7':0.85, 4.25":1.10, 1":1.09, 1.25":0.98 - 1.00 (Valley barbox w/ Ridgeback pro cuts)
Goldball - 8':0.90, 12.2cm:0.91, 4cm:1.14, 5.4cm:1.07 - 1.00 (Heiron & Smith)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/8":0.99 - 0.99 (old GC II at MatchUps, Fort Collins)
MVPCues - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 1/2":0.98, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.98 (Antique Brunswick Jefferson, circa 1900)
oldschool1478 - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 0.625":1.00, 1.5":0.98 - 0.98 (updated Red Badge Diamond Pro)
freds - 8'+: 0.95, 4.9":0.91, 1.1":1.1, 1.8" 1.03 - 0.98 (Gandy Big G, oversized 8)
Cardigan Kid - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/16":0.95 - 0.97 (GC III Table 7 at Premium Billiards, Syracuse, Mark Gregory-modified w/ Artemis cushions)
wigglybridge - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 1/2": 0.98 - 0.98 (GC 1.5, rails rebuilt & cushions replaced by Jay Spielberg)
BryanB - 9':1.00, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.97 (1931 Brunswick with double shimmed pockets)
Poolmanis - 9':1.00, 10.9cm:1.05, 1cm:0.97, 3.1cm:0.95 - 0.97 (modified SAM)
Vahmurka - 9':1.0, 12.5cm:0.91, 20mm:1.04, 45mm:1.03 - 0.97 (Brunswick Metro)
mamics - 9':1.00, 4 11/16":0.95, 143deg:1.07, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.97 (no-name "Chinese Cheapie" with Uylin cushions)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 11/16":1.02, 1 15/16":1.03 - 0.96 (typical League-Cut Diamond)
jviss - 9’:1.00, 4.98”:0.91, 0.76”:1.04, 1.625”:1.00 - 0.95 (GC I)
logical - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (GC II)
dr_dave - 9':1.00, 5": 0.91, 1":1.07, 1 1/5":0.98 - 0.95 (Olhausen purchased from Robert Byrne)
dzcues - 9':1.00, 5":0.91, 15/16":1.07, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.95 (Gandy Big G)
Sloppy Pockets - 8'+:0.95, 5":0.91, 1 1/8":1.10, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.95 (A.E. Schmidt)
44Runner - 8'+/-:0.925, 4 3/8":1.05, 3/4":1.02, 1":0.95 - 0.94 (8' Diamond Pro-Am - blue label)
Corwyn_8 - 9':1.00, 4 3/4":0.95, 1 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.92 (Gandy Winchester)
beetle - 9':1.00, 13.1cm:0.88, 2.2cm:1.03, 4.3cm:1.00 - 0.91 (Olhausen York)
frigopie - 9':1.00, 11.5cm:0.95, 138.7deg:0.98, 3.5cm:0.98 - 0.91 (Eurotour Dynamic III)
12squared - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.91 (GC home table)
iusedtoberich - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 1":1.05, 1 1/2":0.97 - 0.90 (GC)
MSchaffer - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.89 (GC II)
mfinkelstein3 - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC III)
StraightPoolIU - 9':1.00, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.88 (GC I)
Vahmurka - 9':1.00, 5 1/8":0.88, 7/8":1.03, 1 1/2": 0.97 - 0.88 (GC)
Dopc - 8':0.90, 4 1/2":1.00, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.87 (8' Connelly Kayenta)
SloMoHolic - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.87 (old 8' Brunswick Medalist league table)
RobMan - 9':1.0, 5": 0.88, 3/4":1.01, 1.5":0.97 - 0.86 (GC)
sniggihs - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (7’ Diamond - Blue Label)
SloMoHolic - 8'+:0.95, 4 7/8":0.91, 7/8":1.04, 1 1/4":0.95 - 0.85 (Brunswick Medalist at Stardust Club in Manchaca, TX)
buckshotshoey - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 3/4":1.02, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.85 (American Heritage "Independence")
nateobot - 7':0.85, 4 3/8":1.05, 1/2":0.95, 1 3/4":1.00 - 0.85 (custom-made)
angluse - 8'+: 0.95, 4 5/8":0.95, 7/16":0.98, 1 3/16":0.95 - 0.84 (1935 Brunswick Challenger)
dr_dave - 8':0.90, 4 3/4":0.95, 5/8":1.00, 1 3/8":0.98 - 0.84 (8' Connelly home table)
BRussell - 8':0.90, 5":0.91, 13/16":1.04, 1 1/2":0.98 - 0.83 (8' Olhausen)
Lovepool - 9':1.00, 13cm:0.88, 1cm:0.96, 3.5cm:0.97 - 0.82 (home table)
jtaylor996 - 7':0.85, 5 1/8":0.88, 146deg:1.09, 1.51":1.00 - 0.82 (7' Legacy home table)
Mooneye - 7':0.85, 4 7/8":0.91, 3/4":1.02, 1 5/8":1.00 - 0.79 (7' Brunswick "Ranchero")
SloMoHolic - 6':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 5/8":0.95 - 0.77 (old 6' Valley "bar box")
dzcues - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 1/2":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box")
dr_dave - 7':0.85, 4 1/2":1.00, 0":0.95, 3/4":0.95 - 0.77 (7' Valley "bar box" at West End, Fort Collins)

Call_me_Tom · Jun 10, 2020

dr_dave said:
I entered your numbers into the online mobile-friendly TDF tool and added your info to the list:

Call_me_Tom - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 2":1.03 - 1.04 (Valley bar box with Penguin Pro rails)

Thanks for posting,
Dave

PS: That's a tough bar box!

Sorry I messed up on the shelf depth, below are the correct numbers.

Pocket mouth: 4.0”
Pocket throat: 3.5”
Shelf depth: 1.0”
Penguin Pro Cut rails

dr_dave · Jun 11, 2020

Call_me_Tom said:
Sorry I messed up on the shelf depth, below are the correct numbers.

Pocket mouth: 4.0”
Pocket throat: 3.5”
Shelf depth: 1.0”
Penguin Pro Cut rails

FYI, here's the updated posting:

Call_me_Tom - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 1":0.98 - 0.99 (Valley bar box with Penguin Pro rails)

Regards,
Dave

Call_me_Tom · Jun 12, 2020

dr_dave said:
FYI, here's the updated posting:

Call_me_Tom - 7':0.85, 4":1.20, 1/2":0.99, 1":0.98 - 0.99 (Valley bar box with Penguin Pro rails)

Regards,
Dave

Thanks, once things open in my area I’ll take more measurements of tables.

Table plays fairly close as it did before with the exception of pocket speed. You really have to be aware of how hard you’re hitting the cue ball.

peppersauce · Jun 29, 2020

I didn’t get all the measurements for this table, but it’s a tough one. Sub 3 7/8”. Thought I’d share.

dr_dave · Jun 29, 2020

peppersauce said:
I didn’t get all the measurements for this table, but it’s a tough one. Sub 3 7/8”. Thought I’d share.

That does look brutal. Please post the other measurements if and when you get a chance.

Thanks,
Dave

Justaneng · Jul 20, 2020

8' Olhausen - 0.90
4" Pockets - 1.2
1.5" Shelf depth - 0.99
7/8" Pocket Angle Factor - 1.05

0.9 * 1.2 * 0.99 * 1.05 = 1.12

dr_dave · Jul 20, 2020

Justaneng said:
8' Olhausen - 0.90
4" Pockets - 1.2
1.5" Shelf depth - 0.99
7/8" Pocket Angle Factor - 1.05

0.9 * 1.2 * 0.99 * 1.05 = 1.12

Thank you for posting. I added your info to the list. Those are tight pockets.

Regards,
Dave

Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

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