Cue Lost by USPS - Should I Refund the Buyer

What should I do?? (private poll)

  • Tell the buyer I will never refund the money because you declined additional insurance?

    Votes: 11 14.3%
  • Refund the buyer now?

    Votes: 10 13.0%
  • Agree to refund the buyer once the package is deemed lost by the USPS?

    Votes: 56 72.7%

  • Total voters
    77
  • Poll closed .

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
Okay, I need some input. I have to make a decision and I'm stuck on deciding what would be the right thing to do. Should the fact that the buyer declined insurance matter? Is it 100% my responsibility no matter what the buyer said? To me it's not clear cut so I'd thought I'd put it to a vote because, in the end, I want to do what's right.

Simple Background:
1.) Sold a cue after getting negotiated down.
2.) Shipped it USPS Priority 3 Day on June 21, 2020 without extra insurance.
3.) Buyer specifically said not to buy additional insurance to save money.
4.) I've ordered a trace and have talked with the local Post Office and they can not find the package.
5.) Today the package still says "In Transit" in the USPS tracking system.
6.) Buyer wants me to refund his money now.

What should I do?

Thanks..
 

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Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You got three pages of responses last time, think the general consensus was to refund the money, guess you have some wiggle room though as Barenbrugge said.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Tell him that USPS is investigating and you will refund once they confirm it is lost or delivered. They will pay you the $50 of Priority Insurance plus refund the postage if it is lost.

Insurance is totally on you, regardless of what he said. If you don't insure it, you're still responsible for safe delivery of the item or he would win a PayPal dispute.

Exception: if you have in writing that he accepts all liability by you shipping without insurance
 

djv122385

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Okay, I need some input. I have to make a decision and I'm stuck on deciding what would be the right thing to do. Should the fact that the buyer declined insurance matter? Is it 100% my responsibility no matter what the buyer said? To me it's not clear cut so I'd thought I'd put it to a vote because, in the end, I want to do what's right.



Simple Background:

1.) Sold a cue after getting negotiated down.

2.) Shipped it USPS Priority 3 Day on June 21, 2020 without extra insurance.

3.) Buyer specifically said not to buy additional insurance to save money.

4.) I've ordered a trace and have talked with the local Post Office and they can not find the package.

5.) Today the package still says "In Transit" in the USPS tracking system.

6.) Buyer wants me to refund his money now.



What should I do?



Thanks..
In any/every circumstance I've been in with domestic shipping, insurance is NOT the buyers responsibility, it's the shipper's. In my eyes, 100% you should refund this buyer, as he did his obligation in paying you. Your obligation is making sure the cue gets from point A to point B. If you wanted the buyer paying shipping and didn't want to cover the insurance I would have demanded insurance covered, or not sold.

USPS is batting .1000 right now with being late. They've been late delivering my last 3 cues that were overnighted. Hopefully this cue wasn't too expensive, but from experience, don't ship ANYTHING without insurance right now, as it's almost a guarantee to be late at best.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
The cost of insurance or the decision to self insure should, in my mind, always be included as part of your pricing or shipping costs ...period. The seller has the obligation to get the product to the buyer.

The fact that you negotiated down is irrelevent unless you transferred some defined responsibility or risk clearly to the buyer as part of the negotiation.

The time to transfer shipping loss risk to the buyer was when they asked for no extra insurance. If you agreed without specifically transferring the risk to the buyer then all you really did was give him a shipping discount.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
The cost of insurance or the decision to self insure should, in my mind, always be included as part of your pricing or shipping costs ...period. The seller has the obligation to get the product to the buyer.

The fact that you negotiated down is irrelevent unless you transferred some defined responsibility or risk clearly to the buyer as part of the negotiation.

The time to transfer shipping loss risk to the buyer was when they asked for no extra insurance. If you agreed without specifically transferring the risk to the buyer then all you really did was give him a shipping discount.

It's only logical
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Here is the truth from my seat, I was sent an item on July 2, 2020 USPS Priority Mail. It is very slow mail process, should have had in 2 - 3 days, but did not. Within last 48 hours two new scams. So there is hope.. Might get package some day. From Flowover Country to AZ.:grin:

When I send something over $50.00 in value Priority Mail, I insure on my dime for the value. Either replacement value if replaceable. Or the amount of money buyer paid me for item.

I take responsibility for S*** that would happen in the hand of 3rd party like USPS. Insurance is cheaper then have to dig into your pocket for many dollars.

Like I said my 2 - 3 day Priority Mail is now over 18 DAYS since being mailed. POST OFFICE SAYS Priority Mail is our best guess 2 - 3 days service, not a Guarantee.:angry:
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
I always buy insurance at my expense for this very reason. Regardless of that, I think you can look at Amazon's policies as guidelines. If you buy something and it is shipped, but lost or damaged by the shipping company, the seller is obligated to issue a refund.

It doesn't seem fair, but the simple act of selling is not complete until the customer receives the package in good order. I think they made a bad decision when you offered insurance and they declined, but then basically you are self-insuring after a reasonable waiting period.

In all likelihood, the package will show up. Very few packages are lost forever unless they are stolen. I had one UPS package that was picked up by the USPS by mistake at a local shipping office and it took about a month to get it back.

By the way, if you refund the money you may be able to "recall" the package. I had some weights that were lost or unreasonably delayed. The shipper recalled them and refunded me. They finally arrived at my post office but were sent straight back to the seller without being delivered to my house. I would hope that if you let the buyer know you're waiting for USPS notification, then will refund if lost, they'll be OK with it. They know you shipped it, so it's not your fault.
 
Last edited:

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
I didn't Talley it up but it seamed split IIRC. That's why I put it to a poll.
Thanks!!

You got three pages of responses last time, think the general consensus was to refund the money, guess you have some wiggle room though as Barenbrugge said.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
If you have written proof that the buyer accepted the risk of loss or damage during transit (note: not the same as "no insurance" but close), I would try to enforce the agreement.

If no written proof you might prevail but . . . I would eat it, and always get it in writing from now on.
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If you have written proof that the buyer accepted the risk of loss or damage during transit (note: not the same as "no insurance" but close), I would try to enforce the agreement.

If no written proof you might prevail but . . . I would eat it, and always get it in writing from now on.

Right

I think for the community to give an accurate answer, we would have to see the exact wording of both buyer and seller when making the agreement.
 

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
Makes sense when you say it like that. I'm rarely a seller, mainly a buyer. Further to your comments, in my business we manufacture large electrical equipment. Many times we ship ExWorks since a great majority of my clients hire logistics companies to handle their shipments. If not, we include shipping and insurance and add it to the bill at a profit.

I doubt many people buy and sell cues ExWorks but I think it might be a good idea. Then, once the buyer sends UPS to pick up the package, title has transferred and it's no longer the sellers problem.

Sorry for bringing this up again.

The cost of insurance or the decision to self insure should, in my mind, always be included as part of your pricing or shipping costs ...period. The seller has the obligation to get the product to the buyer.

The fact that you negotiated down is irrelevent unless you transferred some defined responsibility or risk clearly to the buyer as part of the negotiation.

The time to transfer shipping loss risk to the buyer was when they asked for no extra insurance. If you agreed without specifically transferring the risk to the buyer then all you really did was give him a shipping discount.
 

cubswin

Just call me Joe...
Silver Member
On you to insure it for what you sold it for, you build it into your price.

I would refund the money once the post office says it is lost.
 

Coos Cues

Coos Cues
It's not lost. It's sitting on one of the hundreds of trucks camped down in Dallas. They will get around to emptying them and delivering your cue. Probably by the end of the month.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Not to ruin ya'll's day, but if you sell a lot of cues, you, or your cumaker's or cue seller's organization, should hire an attorney to advise ya'll of your rights and obligations under the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). It will be eye-opening. In the present context there are shipping terms, like F.O.B., which may address transfer of risk. There's a lot of "sfuff" in this law. As usual, what you don't know can hurt you.
 

Coos Cues

Coos Cues
Not to ruin ya'll's day, but if you sell a lot of cues, you, or your cumaker's or cue seller's organization, should hire an attorney to advise ya'll of your rights and obligations under the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code). It will be eye-opening. In the present context there are shipping terms, like F.O.B., which may address transfer of risk. There's a lot of "sfuff" in this law. As usual, what you don't know can hurt you.

He isn't shipping the Mona Lisa.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
"Free On Board (FOB) is a shipment term used to indicate whether the seller or the buyer is liable for goods that are damaged or destroyed during shipping. 'FOB shipping point' or 'FOB origin' means the buyer is at risk and takes ownership of goods once the seller ships the product."
 
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