Cue Lost by USPS - Should I Refund the Buyer

What should I do?? (private poll)

  • Tell the buyer I will never refund the money because you declined additional insurance?

    Votes: 11 14.3%
  • Refund the buyer now?

    Votes: 10 13.0%
  • Agree to refund the buyer once the package is deemed lost by the USPS?

    Votes: 56 72.7%

  • Total voters
    77
  • Poll closed .

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I voted to refund the money.

Here is why:
You've been harping on this for a month now. If you refund the money, it will be out of your hair and life. Get rid of any stress from this situation.

I personally think the cue will eventually be delivered. Tell the buyer you are refunding him, on the condition if the cue ever makes it to him, you either want the money back, or the cue back.
 

JohnnyOzone

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Free On Board (FOB) is a shipment term used to indicate whether the seller or the buyer is liable for goods that are damaged or destroyed during shipping. 'FOB shipping point' or 'FOB origin' means the buyer is at risk and takes ownership of goods once the seller ships the product."

It means "Freight On Board"
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My friend works for the post office for the past 25 years as a carrier. She told me its never been like this, ever. "Every day is like Christmas". She has been working 12 hour shifts daily for a few months now.

Her post office has X amount of routes. There are many people who are "bums" as she said, and permanently called out sick. This has left 8 routes in her post office without a carrier. They don't have the backup people anymore either to fill in for these "sick" carriers. So all those 8 routes were divided up into the remaining carriers and tacked onto their existing routes.

Prior to corona, the PO would discipline employees who called out too much. They were basically fired if they didn't have a damn good reason with dr proof to be out. Now, with Corona, there is a new rule that no one can be fired for calling out. You also can call out if you don't have anyone to take care of your kids. She said one of the "bums" was spotted on FB on the beach with her kids, living it up, while she slaved away 12 hr shifts.

You can guarantee this is happening all across the country. Demand is Xmas high daily. Employees are legitimately sick and staying home. And others are taking advantage of the system and faking being sick and staying home. The end result is mail is moving like snails.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Not if you ship packages all the time and they rarely get lost. Insurance is a service that makes money. By definition, the insurance companies get far the best of it.

I get your point, but I also understand the time you have to dig into your wallet for hundreds of dollars, the insurance is cheap.

BTW Priority Mail is $50.00 FREE INSURANCE. So if you send say a object worth a $1,000.00, what sound better $10.00 INSURANCE FEE you might never collect, or digging into your wallet for the Grand you owe?

Easy choice for me.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Here is another one:

"FOB stands for Free on Board. It is a term that specifies who is liable for goods at different points in the shipping process. FOB is one of the phrases in a set of Incoterms—globally recognized terms used to simplify international trade. The term indicates who pays for shipping costs and who is responsible for damaged goods. FOB does not indicate when ownership of the transported goods moves from one party to the next. Instead, it focuses on the specific obligations of delivering the goods."
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
The term "Free On Board" goes back to the days when most goods were transported by ship. Under an FOB term, the Seller had an obligation to get the goods to the dock and arrange for and pay the longshoremen and stevedores to hoist the goods onto the ship -- the "on board" was "free" to the buyer. Once in the hold of the ship, the buyer paid the ship for transport costs.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Risk Tolerance

I knew someone who shipped tens of thousands of identical packages a year. Typically over 97% of those packages arrived no issues. Silly to not self insure.

When someone ships a handful of cues a year, their risk tolerance is different. Losing one cue is a big deal.

Hungarian is caught between what is right in the transaction and what is right for his reputation here. I would have it in writing that a buyer declined insurance and accepted risk before shipping without insurance. Not refunding in any other situation will damage Hungarian's reputation with some people, fair or not.

Extraordinary circumstances here and I think Hungarian is justified in waiting a few more weeks to act. As it sits, the delay in shipping is easily explainable and there is no indication the shipment is lost rather than delayed. How many on here want a buyer of theirs to have both the refund and the goods in hand? A lot of people I would trust, not sure if I would trust a total stranger.

With widespread shipping delays I think it is premature to refund the buyer and I doubt insurance would pay off at this point either.

I would explain things to the buyer in writing even if they already know all these things and promise to refund if and when the shipment is listed as missing and not just late.

Probably nobody will be thrilled with this position when the buyer wants his money or his cue now. These aren't normal times now though and even in normal times I wouldn't get rushed when the buyer specified no insurance.

The main takeaway, don't drop down below a price you can comfortably pay shipping and insurance on an item. Since delivery is your responsibility, so is insurance on items you can't easily afford to lose. Don't make insurance a negotiating point, don't even bring it up. If it comes up, tell the buyer that all packages you ship are insured, standard policy.

For whatever reason, you let yourself get low balled on price. That is where things really went to crap. Whatever happens now you are going to take some damage. Is the damage to your pocket or your reputation more important?

I am a rare shipper myself. Thinking about selling a CF shaft right now. I'll try local first. If I have to ship, it will be insured, not negotiable with buyer.

Hu
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't Talley it up but it seamed split IIRC. That's why I put it to a poll.
Thanks!!

It's funny how we remember things differently, I thought the answers in the previous thread matched your current poll numbers pretty close. Not a jab, insult or anything else, just funny to me.
 

j2pac

Marital Slow Learner.
Staff member
Moderator
Gold Member
Silver Member
Right

I think for the community to give an accurate answer, we would have to see the exact wording of both buyer and seller when making the agreement.

I don't give my buyers the option of declining insurance. Never have, never will. If I sell something that is to be shipped, I insure the item. Period. :cool:
 

shasta777

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is the way I see it...

1. Ins is always on the person doing the selling... (Not the buyer)
2. Do the refund to the buyer... (tell him if the item does get delivered
then to contact you so it can get returned at YOUR expense)
3. Do not get nasty or mad at the customer cause they want a refund
(rule of thumb is alway be nice... it goes a long way!! & will always come
back in your favor)
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
Boxing has a good rule that also can be applied to transacting business with an unknown person over distance: "Protect yourself at all times." Essentially, you cannot depend upon the other guy to do the right thing/follow the rules. Unfortunately, there are some untrustworthy persons who will steal your cue or keep your money. Not everyone but some . . . I do not know about getting a package "returned" by a carrier but that needs to be explored.

Whatever ya'll agree to do, signed document(s) need to memorialize the agreement which should always include a provision that says if suit is brought to enforce the agreement . . . prevailing party is also entitled to recover all expenses of litigation . . . attorneys fees . . . costs associated with travel to litigate. If you DIY check out contract forms on net or local law library.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You must refund the full purchase price IF the buyer paid Pay Pal AND you know if the PAY PAL transaction was NOT friends and family OR the Pay Pal transaction was charged to a CREDIT card and not directly to their bank account.

Both the credit card company OR a REGULAR business pay pal transaction will hold the seller responsible for delivering the item.

IF it was a PAY PAL friends and family payment AND that payment was charged to the buyers CREDIT card they will still be able to hold you responsible for non delivery.

Your only legal protection is a Pay Pal F&F transaction WITH THAT transaction NOT being charged to the buyers' Credit card but directly to a bank account debit or a debit card.

Besides all this legal information, the seller has to make a personal decision as to what they think is the right thing to do- Reputation and Character!
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
Here is the way I see it...

1. Ins is always on the person doing the selling... (Not the buyer)
2. Do the refund to the buyer... (tell him if the item does get delivered
then to contact you so it can get returned at YOUR expense)
3. Do not get nasty or mad at the customer cause they want a refund
(rule of thumb is alway be nice... it goes a long way!! & will always come
back in your favor)

I don't know what Shasta does for a living but this is management material thinking.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
I have spent two hours researching Paypal agreement provisions and FAQ;s, and I still do not have a final answer. If I was in the business, I would keep going, but as it is, I have no dog in the fight and there is no easily available answer. I was trying to help, but . . . Sorry.
 

Matt_24

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whenever I sell a cue, "I" cover shipping and insurance. If it doesn't make it there, it's on me. Until my buyer receives the cue and is happy, the money isn't "mine" yet. Period.
 
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