Cue Lost by USPS - Should I Refund the Buyer

What should I do?? (private poll)

  • Tell the buyer I will never refund the money because you declined additional insurance?

    Votes: 11 14.3%
  • Refund the buyer now?

    Votes: 10 13.0%
  • Agree to refund the buyer once the package is deemed lost by the USPS?

    Votes: 56 72.7%

  • Total voters
    77
  • Poll closed .

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
"Incoterms and UCC Article 2 - Conflicts and Confusions - SMU ...scholar.smu.edu › cgi › viewcontentPDF
The UCC has its own definitions of such terms as 'F.O.B.' and 'C.I.F.. ' 2. The CISG does not have such definitions, and the CISG rules on delivery terms are.
by JA Spanogle - ‎1997 - ‎Cited by 12 - ‎Related articles"

Google and learn. When one begins addressing shipping terms and liability (risk of loss) one can be in over their heads, and even lost, very quickly. I am lost . . . but I know I am lost and I do have an idea in which direction the road might be. Don't any you boys turkey hunt?

And, btw, it is "Free on Board". Difficult to imagine one would post without at least first scanning a 3 or 4 page thread, but I guess ya'll get all kinds around here. We used to see all types of folks come in the pool hall, too, but a lot of types did not hang around.

What kind of pool hall is this, anyway?
 

gunzby

My light saber is LD
Silver Member
"Incoterms and UCC Article 2 - Conflicts and Confusions - SMU ...scholar.smu.edu › cgi › viewcontentPDF
The UCC has its own definitions of such terms as 'F.O.B.' and 'C.I.F.. ' 2. The CISG does not have such definitions, and the CISG rules on delivery terms are.
by JA Spanogle - ‎1997 - ‎Cited by 12 - ‎Related articles"

Google and learn. When one begins addressing shipping terms and liability (risk of loss) one can be in over their heads, and even lost, very quickly. I am lost . . . but I know I am lost and I do have an idea in which direction the road might be. Don't any you boys turkey hunt?

And, btw, it is "Free on Board". Difficult to imagine one would post without at least first scanning a 3 or 4 page thread, but I guess ya'll get all kinds around here. We used to see all types of folks come in the pool hall, too, but a lot of types did not hang around.

What kind of pool hall is this, anyway?

I don't need to Google legal terms or scan a thread to know that I would keep my word when selling a cue.
 

Biloxi Boy

Man With A Golden Arm
What you choose to do is one thing. What you can require of someone else and what someone else can require of you are another.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
I am actually surprise this is still going. IMHO the sender is responsible to get product or refund to buyer.

If sending protect yourself with insurance. It'd better then stress of paying out of pocket.

My package USPS Priority Mail is in the same boat, mailed Julu 1,- ish. Never arrived, but I do get TEXT UPDATES from USPS Tracking saying its LATE, not sure if they are automatic, or actually scans.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
virtual scans

I am actually surprise this is still going. IMHO the sender is responsible to get product or refund to buyer.

If sending protect yourself with insurance. It'd better then stress of paying out of pocket.

My package USPS Priority Mail is in the same boat, mailed Julu 1,- ish. Never arrived, but I do get TEXT UPDATES from USPS Tracking saying its LATE, not sure if they are automatic, or actually scans.



I know we are mostly discussing USPS in this thread but a point about scans that I don't know who all indulges in. There are shipment scans, everything that is supposed to be on that truck or plane is reported in a location although the item is not scanned. UPS also indulged in "virtual scans" years ago, neither the item or the overall shipment was really scanned but that is where UPS figured it should be!

Stuff can be "at" the local hub, so that is where the search starts, and often ends. In reality it was never scanned since it first entered the system. Start backtracking real scans and the package was last scanned entering the system in BF Egypt and none of the scans were real since then.

A happy story, my timing was perfect to squeeze UPS so a package jumped from Salt Lake Utah to in my hands in small town Louisiana by pure freaking magic! A custom item so no doubt it was my original shipment but it sat in Salt Lake for a year or two according to tracking, while I had it.

I hate shipping!

Hu
 

nine_ball6970

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My thought when shipping is that if the package gets lost or destroyed in transit that I will be getting the insurance money and refunding the buyer for what they had paid me for the package.

I believe the item still belongs to the shipper until it reaches it's final destination and buyer is happy with the item.
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why shouldn't the buyer have the freedom of choice to self insure and get a lower price, or buy insurance and pay a higher price? I think everyone should be able to decide their own risk tolerance.

But then if the cue doesn't arrive don't blame the seller or ask him for a refund. I am always VERY tolerant of risks - when it is someone else's skin in the game.
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
Tell him that USPS is investigating and you will refund once they confirm it is lost or delivered. They will pay you the $50 of Priority Insurance plus refund the postage if it is lost.

Insurance is totally on you, regardless of what he said. If you don't insure it, you're still responsible for safe delivery of the item or he would win a PayPal dispute.

Exception: if you have in writing that he accepts all liability by you shipping without insurance

There you go. I had the same kind of thing happen with USPS recently with a book I sold. It took over a month for a book to get from S. Cal to N. Cal, but it did finally arrive. My customer actually received the book on the same day I was going to send him another one. Took about five weeks to make the 400 mile journey. Go figure.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
But then if the cue doesn't arrive don't blame the seller or ask him for a refund. I am always VERY tolerant of risks - when it is someone else's skin in the game.
So, if the buyer wants to go without insurance, he should agree to something like:

I am buying a cue from Joe Smith for $200. I have decided to not have it insured and I accept all responsibility and the full amount of the loss if I do not receive it. Further, within four days of receiving the tracking number from Joe, I will tell Paypal/Ebay/other third party that I have received the item even if I haven't. At that time I will also give Joe the highest possible feedback for doing his part of the bargain. If I fail to fulfill my part of this bargain in giving Joe good feedback within a week of shipping, I will owe him another $200 to be paid immediately.​

As a seller, I think it is easier to just self insure small items and to insure more expensive items. If I'm shipping a $20 Mosconi biography, I'll take the risk. If it's a $600 set of Eddie Robin's books, I'm not willing to go self insured. I don't ask the buyer what they prefer.

Another factor is what's going to happen if I need to make a claim. I don't want to waste my time with the Post Office for $20. For $600, I'm willing to jump through a number of hoops if needed. I'm not sure how I'm going to prove value, though, since the list price is more like $80 for the Robin books. I've had a postal clerk tell me, "No purchase receipt, no claim."
 

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
From now on, if I sell anything it's going to be ExWorks. Buyer to set up shipping and send the driver to pick it up.

So, if the buyer wants to go without insurance, he should agree to something like:

I am buying a cue from Joe Smith for $200. I have decided to not have it insured and I accept all responsibility and the full amount of the loss if I do not receive it. Further, within four days of receiving the tracking number from Joe, I will tell Paypal/Ebay/other third party that I have received the item even if I haven't. At that time I will also give Joe the highest possible feedback for doing his part of the bargain. If I fail to fulfill my part of this bargain in giving Joe good feedback within a week of shipping, I will owe him another $200 to be paid immediately.​

As a seller, I think it is easier to just self insure small items and to insure more expensive items. If I'm shipping a $20 Mosconi biography, I'll take the risk. If it's a $600 set of Eddie Robin's books, I'm not willing to go self insured. I don't ask the buyer what they prefer.

Another factor is what's going to happen if I need to make a claim. I don't want to waste my time with the Post Office for $20. For $600, I'm willing to jump through a number of hoops if needed. I'm not sure how I'm going to prove value, though, since the list price is more like $80 for the Robin books. I've had a postal clerk tell me, "No purchase receipt, no claim."
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
Agree to refund the buyer once the package is deemed lost by the USPS
I have had some 21-day deliveries with priority, nothing lost yet.
Tracking isn't going to help much until things start moving wherever it's being held up.
I thought they were lost but eventually everything turned up.
 

logical

Loose Rack
Silver Member
Wait a minute...the buyer gets to demand no insurance so that the buyer's cost is lower, but if the package is lost, then the seller has to eat the loss??? Whaaa??!

The buyer should suffer the loss because the buyer decided not to purchase insurance to protect against the loss. Every right minded person would agree.

Do you people also believe that if you buy a home and you are offered flood insurance, and you decline, and then a flood happens that the seller of the home should send you a check to cover the damage caused by the flood?

Again, if the seller had said "OK cheapskate, but if it gets lost it's on you" then sure that's different. But without an agreement otherwise it's always on the seller.

In the some parts of the business world most things are sold "FOB sellers dock" which means the buyer arranges shipping and once it's on the truck safely he owns it and the seller is free and clear. There is none of that in a casual sale.

I don't discuss or negotiate insurance with buyers, it's not their business. I have probably bought or sold a thousand things from $2 to $10,000 through ebay and various forums.
 
Last edited:

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
I know we are mostly discussing USPS in this thread but a point about scans that I don't know who all indulges in. There are shipment scans, everything that is supposed to be on that truck or plane is reported in a location although the item is not scanned. UPS also indulged in "virtual scans" years ago, neither the item or the overall shipment was really scanned but that is where UPS figured it should be!

Stuff can be "at" the local hub, so that is where the search starts, and often ends. In reality it was never scanned since it first entered the system. Start backtracking real scans and the package was last scanned entering the system in BF Egypt and none of the scans were real since then.

A happy story, my timing was perfect to squeeze UPS so a package jumped from Salt Lake Utah to in my hands in small town Louisiana by pure freaking magic! A custom item so no doubt it was my original shipment but it sat in Salt Lake for a year or two according to tracking, while I had it.

I hate shipping!

Hu


Before I retired I use Federal Express Next Day by 1030 Air 5 or more times a week. Back then pre 1998 Federal Express pretty much knew the location of ever small Next Day Air 24 X 7.

If it was on a Delievery Vehicle, on the Air, or at the Memphis, TN., Hub. The service was wonderful, and it was real tracking.

Today no one care, prior to the Covid Hoax, USPS Priority was ok, today it is S**t.
 

trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The buyer didn’t buy insurance .. why the hell would I as the seller give him his money back. Take some responsibility for your decisions in this world.
 

ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
The buyer didn’t buy insurance .. why the hell would I as the seller give him his money back. Take some responsibility for your decisions in this world.

Because you'd lose in court and your reputation would get dragged through the mid.

The seller did not buy SHIPPING insurance. It's not "Purchase Insurance"

Take some responsibility for your decisions in the world
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At the end of the day, if usps says it is lost, refund the money.
Since you guys talked in the phone, this is what I would tell him.

"Look bud, to be clear I am refunding your money in full as you asked for a refund.
To be honest though, I was a bit surprised by your request sincr per our conversation you declined the insurance and wanted a lower price. Upon accommodating your request, once the cue is lost you now want a refund.

The loss comes out of my pocket because you didnt want the insurance and I assumed since you declined it, you would take the hit on the cue if it was lossed or damaged during shipment, a learning lesson for me no doubt."
 

Snooker Theory

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If I was the seller, def refund the money, but I'd talk some shit.

If I was the buyer I would never have asked for a refund after saying" no insurance, give the lower price" Maybe he didn't understand the process, seems kinda scummy of the buyer.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Part of problem with UPS, and USPS they are unionized employees, very difficult to remove those who do not care.


They are like Revolver with a Broken Main Spring, can not be fired.
 
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