Does lamination itself create a LD shaft? Does radial lamination create one? Does it have to be hollowed out at the end and be foam filled? Help me understand what makes an LD and how does it work? I'm sure there is a detailed description or opinion, just help or point me please. Thanks to all.
Ld shafts - mfg science - help...
- Thread starter BarTableMan
- Start date
There are three things. One is easily changed (mass in effect of the collision with current vibration model of off center hits). Another has been attempted and potentially has succeeded (the retarding or reducing of wave travel down the shaft from off-center hits during tip/ball contact). The other ... I'm not sure if its been truly tested, but would require different materials (higher friction between the tip/ball - maybe to a non-achievable theoretical value).
But, nevertheless, the best post I've ever read on "what causes squirt" was from Thomas Wayne. It was clear. Concise. Historic. Etc.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/rec.sport.billiard/HCtUJCAlU4o/cuXP-r33E28J
There's more to it than what Thomas says of course as he concentrated on tip-end mass, but at this stage of cue evolution, it might not be necessary to understand anything more.
Freddie <~~~ and yes, we've been discussing it even longer than Thomas' post
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Material not lamination?
So what I'm seeing and reading is that the LD comes from the drilled out end and the soft material insertion, not the lamination? Correct?
So what I'm seeing and reading is that the LD comes from the drilled out end and the soft material insertion, not the lamination? Correct?
Reduced end mass creates lower deflection. Different construction methods are generally for radial consistency.
LD comes from lower end mass AND other aspects of the shaft/cue. Lamination can provide radial consistency. But end mass is not the be all, end all of LD. You also need no material insertion in the hollow end... or elsewhere.
The term LD is not even right imo.
It should be high deflection ( the shaft that is ) or Low Squirt.
It should be high deflection ( the shaft that is ) or Low Squirt.
depends
Depends on who is promoting it :killingme:
They make this stuff up as they try to keep their sales up..............................
Its pretty straight forward, Laminated shafts Are not made with the best grades of maple.
Now the glue might be a different story I would think that it would take some really good glue to hold all that grade B lumber together.
MMike
Depends on who is promoting it :killingme:
They make this stuff up as they try to keep their sales up..............................
Its pretty straight forward, Laminated shafts Are not made with the best grades of maple.
Now the glue might be a different story I would think that it would take some really good glue to hold all that grade B lumber together.
MMike
If I could only get my hands on some of that secret LD glue.:killingme:
I suspect the lamination results in a more consistent feel (shaft to shaft) after the shaft has been hollowed out. A single piece of wood might have inconsistencies in the grain that are magnified by the hollowing process. In theory, laminating (particularly radial lamination) should average-out, and hopefully cancel-out, any inconsistencies in the grain.
Laminated wood is also stronger and much less susceptible to warping. (Think of a 2' by 4' piece of plywood vs the same size piece of solid wood; the solid wood is much more likely to warp with humidity changes)
Laminated wood is also stronger and much less susceptible to warping. (Think of a 2' by 4' piece of plywood vs the same size piece of solid wood; the solid wood is much more likely to warp with humidity changes)
I have several hollowed out solid maple that have very similar squirt characteristics of the 314-2. I don't know who has to behind the steering wheel to tell any kind of radial inconsistencies.
LOW D, miss diagnosed!!!
There's something confusing in the description, Low Deflection Shaft. The issue is cue-ball squirt being described as "shaft deflection."
Here's where the problem begins with this miss diagnosed term, Low Deflection shaft.
Cue-ball squirt "IS" the issue, and it is "MUCH LESS," when the ferrule jumps to the side at cue-ball contact. When this occurs the cue-ball travels in a straight path instead of swerving away from the ferrule at contact.. In other words, the shaft actually deflects away from the cue-ball and the cue-ball travels in a straighter line down the table, this means what has been described as low "SHAFT" deflection is really a description of the path of the cue-ball, not the movement of the shaft. The vibration of the shaft is "ACTUALLY" HIGH DEFLECTION and is why the cue-ball travels straight after contact.
Now the point, a low deflection shaft would be a 15mm "solid" maple shaft with an Ivory ferrule. With this kind of construction, after the tip touches the cue-ball, the cue-ball will jump sideways with squirt, this "IS" cue-ball deflection. Now when a let's say, 12.6mm, hollow front end shaft contacts the cue-ball, the shaft jumps sideways and the cue-ball travels straight. In other words, the shaft exhibits high deflection characteristics and low cue-ball squirt. Just the opposite of what the current group of "shaft sales-hucksters" describe these properties as preforming, hence the attitude of some people today "that this type of shaft construction is just a sales gimmick!" In fact it is a breakthrough in modern shaft technology and (I.M.O.) will be the type of shaft construction that will be used in the future (most of the top players today use this type of shaft).These confusing terms have labled this technological breakthrough inappropriately. High shaft deflection allows the cue-ball to travel in a much straighter line after contact.
Now answering your original question correctly is much easier to understand and describe because we're talking about shaft deflection and NOT cue-ball squirt, labeled as shaft deflection. So when the front end of the shaft is considerably lighter, the mass of the cue-ball moves the shaft sideways and the ball goes straight. Lamination's, whether radial or straight, deal with the shaft's vibration performance consistency. The lamination's "DO NOT" make a shaft (what is inappropriately described as) Low D. It "IS" the lighter weight of the shaft's front end that causes this most rewarding playing characteristic to occur.
There's something confusing in the description, Low Deflection Shaft. The issue is cue-ball squirt being described as "shaft deflection."
Here's where the problem begins with this miss diagnosed term, Low Deflection shaft.
Cue-ball squirt "IS" the issue, and it is "MUCH LESS," when the ferrule jumps to the side at cue-ball contact. When this occurs the cue-ball travels in a straight path instead of swerving away from the ferrule at contact.. In other words, the shaft actually deflects away from the cue-ball and the cue-ball travels in a straighter line down the table, this means what has been described as low "SHAFT" deflection is really a description of the path of the cue-ball, not the movement of the shaft. The vibration of the shaft is "ACTUALLY" HIGH DEFLECTION and is why the cue-ball travels straight after contact.
Now the point, a low deflection shaft would be a 15mm "solid" maple shaft with an Ivory ferrule. With this kind of construction, after the tip touches the cue-ball, the cue-ball will jump sideways with squirt, this "IS" cue-ball deflection. Now when a let's say, 12.6mm, hollow front end shaft contacts the cue-ball, the shaft jumps sideways and the cue-ball travels straight. In other words, the shaft exhibits high deflection characteristics and low cue-ball squirt. Just the opposite of what the current group of "shaft sales-hucksters" describe these properties as preforming, hence the attitude of some people today "that this type of shaft construction is just a sales gimmick!" In fact it is a breakthrough in modern shaft technology and (I.M.O.) will be the type of shaft construction that will be used in the future (most of the top players today use this type of shaft).These confusing terms have labled this technological breakthrough inappropriately. High shaft deflection allows the cue-ball to travel in a much straighter line after contact.
Now answering your original question correctly is much easier to understand and describe because we're talking about shaft deflection and NOT cue-ball squirt, labeled as shaft deflection. So when the front end of the shaft is considerably lighter, the mass of the cue-ball moves the shaft sideways and the ball goes straight. Lamination's, whether radial or straight, deal with the shaft's vibration performance consistency. The lamination's "DO NOT" make a shaft (what is inappropriately described as) Low D. It "IS" the lighter weight of the shaft's front end that causes this most rewarding playing characteristic to occur.
They should really rename them High Deflection shafts just to end the confusion.
HIGH DEFLECTION=LOW SQUIRT
Low Def=High Squirt
Or maybe that's too confusing.
It's all too confusing.
I should just quit even responding to these threads. I've said enough over the past 15+ years. So much that people are repeating my bullshit back to me. And they're pointing out websites to shit that I talked about over a decade ago as if.
That's scary.
It's not too confusing, it is just hard to change things after they have been in use for so many years. Predator spend hundreds of thousands of dollars advertizing in the early years. They did it in a way they thought the public would understand. It seems to have worked for the most part even if it is technically incorrect. Being the first to try what do you think their odds of success would have been if they had called their shaft 'High Deflection'? Would the public have understood it better? My bet is no.
Tell us what you know about grades of Maple.
Wood
Just what I have read, seen owned and been taught . How about you
It was less then a year ago when I heard the owner of a laminated shaft company make the comment that they are starting to use a better grade of maple, but it still wasn't A+ grade.
What does me knowing anything about maple have anything to do with what the owner says and does.?
MMike
Just what I have read, seen owned and been taught . How about you
It was less then a year ago when I heard the owner of a laminated shaft company make the comment that they are starting to use a better grade of maple, but it still wasn't A+ grade.
What does me knowing anything about maple have anything to do with what the owner says and does.?
MMike
The reduced weight from the hollowing of the shaft is one aspect. The stiffness is gained through radial lamination which also lowers deflection.
I have no idea about the B grade maple. I'm sure the quality on my southwest shaft is much higher than my predator. The fact is I play MUCH better with the predator shaft especially on shitty equipment.
I have no idea about the B grade maple. I'm sure the quality on my southwest shaft is much higher than my predator. The fact is I play MUCH better with the predator shaft especially on shitty equipment.
It doesn't.