What's Your Ruling? BCA 8-ball

Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, in one of my matches at the BCAPL, I had an unusal situation come up. In an obvious attempt to play safe, I combo'd a ball into the side pocket. I nestled the cueball right behind the 8-ball forcing a kick for either me or my opponent, depending on who had to shoot next.

My opponent immediately got up out of his chair and said, "I didn't hear you call safe." I replied, "I didn't call anything and combos need to be called." I immediately got a ref to decide. To be honest, I had no clue which way the ruling would go and both of us seemed content with whatever the ruling was.

Before I reveal what the BCA ref had to say, I was wondering what you think the ruling SHOULD be. Perhaps one of the BCA head refs can offer an opinion here.
 
cleary

cleary

Honestly, I'm a liar.
Silver Member
A combo is not an obvious shot. So no matter what your intentions were, it's his turn.
 
P

PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
So, in one of my matches at the BCAPL, I had an unusal situation come up. In an obvious attempt to play safe, I combo'd a ball into the side pocket. I nestled the cueball right behind the 8-ball forcing a kick for either me or my opponent, depending on who had to shoot next.

My opponent immediately got up out of his chair and said, "I didn't hear you call safe." I replied, "I didn't call anything and combos need to be called." I immediately got a ref to decide. To be honest, I had no clue which way the ruling would go and both of us seemed content with whatever the ruling was.

Before I reveal what the BCA ref had to say, I was wondering what you think the ruling SHOULD be. Perhaps one of the BCA head refs can offer an opinion here.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what the BCAPL rule is but here's the WPA rule on this:
1.6 Standard Call Shot
In games in which the shooter is required to call shots, the intended ball and pocket must be indicated for each shot if they are not obvious. Details of the shot, such as cushions struck or other balls contacted or pocketed are irrelevant. Only one ball may be called on each shot.
For a called shot to count, the referee must be satisfied that the intended shot was made, so if there is any chance of confusion, e.g. with bank, combination and similar shots, the shooter should indicate the ball and pocket. If the referee or opponent is unsure of the shot to be played, he may ask for a call.
In call shot games, the shooter may choose to call “safety” instead of a ball and pocket, and then play passes to the opponent at the end of the shot. Whether balls are being spotted after safeties depends on the rules of the particular game.
​
Since you didn't call the combination or a safe, I would say that play should pass to your opponent.
 
bflgvs

bflgvs

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
cleary said:
A combo is not an obvious shot. So no matter what your intentions were, it's his turn.
Click to expand...

I agree, too. I believe that rule 1.17.3 makes it clear that a combination shot is not considered as obvious and that the ball to be pocketed must be called.

No ball was called and therefore it is the opponents turn at the table; end of story.


Gerry S.
 
RunoutJJ

RunoutJJ

Professional Banger
Silver Member
His shot. I guess he doesn't like it when people sew him up tighter than a bulls arse. In the future I would call safe and not assume even though if you didnt call the combo it shouldn't count. Some people are really bad at taking a well executed safety. ;)
 
Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks guys. The ref saw it your way too. It was deemed a safety although I did get a warning from the ref to call my safeties in the future. I know, had it not been a combo, I would have been forced to shoot. What I found interesting is, had I messed-up the safety and left myself a shot, I'm sure my opponent would have been screaming I didn't call my shot (and rightfully so). The only reason why I called over a ref was because I didn't feel I should be penalized depending on the outcome of the shot (which would have been my argument had he ruled against me).

I guess I play a little too much rotation or perhaps most of my call-shot games are played in more civil circumstances but this just never came up for me. A friend of mine put it on par with calling foul on an obvious push.
 
bflgvs

bflgvs

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
Thanks guys. The ref saw it your way too. It was deemed a safety although I did get a warning from the ref to call my safeties in the future. I know, had it not been a combo, I would have been forced to shoot. What I found interesting is, had I messed-up the safety and left myself a shot, I'm sure my opponent would have been screaming I didn't call my shot (and rightfully so). The only reason why I called over a ref was because I didn't feel I should be penalized depending on the outcome of the shot (which would have been my argument had he ruled against me).

I guess I play a little too much rotation or perhaps most of my call-shot games are played in more civil circumstances but this just never came up for me. A friend of mine put it on par with calling foul on an obvious push.
Click to expand...

BCAPL rule 2.8 states that "...you may declare a safety.". It's not like you must or are required to do so. But if an obvious ball is pocketed and the safety is NOT declared you must continue shooting. I guess to be on the 'safe' side you may want call the safety.


Gerry S
 
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D

desmocourtney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
The only reason why I called over a ref was because I didn't feel I should be penalized depending on the outcome of the shot (which would have been my argument had he ruled against me).

You seem to have been rewarded for failure to call a shot.

I guess I play a little too much rotation or perhaps most of my call-shot games are played in more civil circumstances but this just never came up for me. A friend of mine put it on par with calling foul on an obvious push.
Click to expand...

Pocketing a ball and turning the table over seems like a more unusual shot than a combo.
 
pt109

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
Thanks guys. The ref saw it your way too. It was deemed a safety although I did get a warning from the ref to call my safeties in the future. I know, had it not been a combo, I would have been forced to shoot. What I found interesting is, had I messed-up the safety and left myself a shot, I'm sure my opponent would have been screaming I didn't call my shot (and rightfully so). The only reason why I called over a ref was because I didn't feel I should be penalized depending on the outcome of the shot (which would have been my argument had he ruled against me).

I guess I play a little too much rotation or perhaps most of my call-shot games are played in more civil circumstances but this just never came up for me. A friend of mine put it on par with calling foul on an obvious push.
Click to expand...
I think that if I had business dealings with your opponent, I'd want it all
on paper. He was obviously taking a cheap shot, knowing full well that
your shot worked out exactly as you had planned.
When you play people like this, you have to be more careful.
I don't think he's an honorable man.
 
DRW

DRW

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
So, in one of my matches at the BCAPL, I had an unusal situation come up. In an obvious attempt to play safe, I combo'd a ball into the side pocket. I nestled the cueball right behind the 8-ball forcing a kick for either me or my opponent, depending on who had to shoot next.

My opponent immediately got up out of his chair and said, "I didn't hear you call safe." I replied, "I didn't call anything and combos need to be called." I immediately got a ref to decide. To be honest, I had no clue which way the ruling would go and both of us seemed content with whatever the ruling was.

Before I reveal what the BCA ref had to say, I was wondering what you think the ruling SHOULD be. Perhaps one of the BCA head refs can offer an opinion here.
Click to expand...
According to the rules, there is no obvious combo's or banks. His shot.
 
klockdoc

klockdoc

ughhhhhhhhhh
Silver Member
DRW said:
According to the rules, there is no obvious combo's or banks. His shot.
Click to expand...

I can think of a lot of obvious combos.

For one, 2 of your balls are right in front the pocket, slightly separated, but the front ball is wired to go in the pocket.

You are up table, but hooked by your opponents ball of shooting anything except the combination.

Do you need to call this?
 
daylate$short

daylate$short

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would call the safety

If I was in a national tournament, or a local bar weekend tournament, I call all combo's, pushes, and safeties. No game is worth getting into an argument over yours, or your opponents "percieved" intentions of a shot. Just simpler to let them know what you're doing. This is especially important if you make a good hit on your ball, and a ball falls. I also don't like to get a ref involved, they "do" sometimes see things differently than I do.
 
Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
klockdoc said:
I can think of a lot of obvious combos.

For one, 2 of your balls are right in front the pocket, slightly separated, but the front ball is wired to go in the pocket.

You are up table, but hooked by your opponents ball of shooting anything except the combination.

Do you need to call this?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I see your point here klockdoc. In my shot, the first ball was cut to the right and it cut the second ball to the left and dropped in the side-pocket on a steep angle. If it were an intended combo, it would have been a great shot. By no means was this a wired combo.
 
Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
klockdoc said:
I can think of a lot of obvious combos.

For one, 2 of your balls are right in front the pocket, slightly separated, but the front ball is wired to go in the pocket.

You are up table, but hooked by your opponents ball of shooting anything except the combination.

Do you need to call this?
Click to expand...

Technically you do but in practice, obvious combos are rarely called. I can say with certainty that on at least 3 or 4 occasions during this year's BCAPL, I did not call an obvious combo and the rare times I did, I felt a little silly. Many of my opponents also did not call obvious combos.
 
tucson9ball

tucson9ball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
So, in one of my matches at the BCAPL, I had an unusal situation come up. In an obvious attempt to play safe, I combo'd a ball into the side pocket. I nestled the cueball right behind the 8-ball forcing a kick for either me or my opponent, depending on who had to shoot next.

My opponent immediately got up out of his chair and said, "I didn't hear you call safe." I replied, "I didn't call anything and combos need to be called." I immediately got a ref to decide. To be honest, I had no clue which way the ruling would go and both of us seemed content with whatever the ruling was.

Before I reveal what the BCA ref had to say, I was wondering what you think the ruling SHOULD be. Perhaps one of the BCA head refs can offer an opinion here.
Click to expand...


I suppose "technically" by the rules it would be your opponents shot.

My feeling, I first have a question....did both of you call every shot, even the straight in easy ones? If not, then you set a precedent, basically only calling what is not obvious. If the combo was easy, then your opponent probably thought you were playing the combo. If you were playing to pocket a ball and play safe, why didn't you call safe?

I rarely call safeties, all that is required is a legal hit. If I don't pocket a ball it's my opponents turn. If I plan on pocketing a ball and also playing safe, I call "safe".


Here is a scenario that happened to me. This did not happen in Vegas, it was a local tourney. My opponent had BIH playing 8 ball. He ligned up for an obvious shot, he miscued and still made the ball. However, he left himself glued to the back of another one of his set of balls. He proceded to go sit down. I said, "it's your shot, you made the ball". He said "I was playing safe, I never called the shot". ........Let's back up a bit...we were into our 3rd game by this time. Neither of us had called a obvious shot a all. So...when he had BIH and shot his ball with the rest of the table being open, I was expecting him to keep shooting. The miscue caused his poor position and he tried to call safe after the fact.......anyhoo, long story short, I knew I was screwed and 2 rail kicked at one of may balls.

In Vegas the ref probably sided with you according to the rules. The same ref should have strongly recommended that each of you call every shot for the remainder of the match. I know I would........JMO.
 
Cornerman

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
deleted because my post just didn't really make any sense. Typical of me.
 
Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
tucson9ball said:
I suppose "technically" by the rules it would be your opponents shot.

My feeling, I first have a question....did both of you call every shot, even the straight in easy ones? If not, then you set a precedent, basically only calling what is not obvious. If the combo was easy, then your opponent probably thought you were playing the combo. If you were playing to pocket a ball and play safe, why didn't you call safe?

I rarely call safeties, all that is required is a legal hit. If I don't pocket a ball it's my opponents turn. If I plan on pocketing a ball and also playing safe, I call "safe".


Here is a scenario that happened to me. This did not happen in Vegas, it was a local tourney. My opponent had BIH playing 8 ball. He ligned up for an obvious shot, he miscued and still made the ball. However, he left himself glued to the back of another one of his set of balls. He proceded to go sit down. I said, "it's your shot, you made the ball". He said "I was playing safe, I never called the shot". ........Let's back up a bit...we were into our 3rd game by this time. Neither of us had called a obvious shot a all. So...when he had BIH and shot his ball with the rest of the table being open, I was expecting him to keep shooting. The miscue caused his poor position and he tried to call safe after the fact.......anyhoo, long story short, I knew I was screwed and 2 rail kicked at one of may balls.

In Vegas the ref probably sided with you according to the rules. The same ref should have strongly recommended that each of you call every shot for the remainder of the match. I know I would........JMO.
Click to expand...

I'd first like to say that nobody is ever going to call every single shot in a call-shot game. If you ever demanded your opponent to do that, he'd look at you like you had two heads.

As for your questions, I didn't bother calling safe because I wasn't planning on making a ball. I never aimed for it. It wasn't obvious. It wasn't likely. I was clearly playing safe.
 
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