What's the Ruling?

Jude Rosenstock

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So, this question was posed to me yesterday by a very good player I know. Several of us debated it for a while but none of us are actual referees. Interestingly, I think most people will have an opinion they will not be able to support with actual rules. Please review the diagram below and offer your opinion AND THEN try to find a rule that supports it.

The game is obviously 14.1. Shooter has BIH in the kitchen. The 1-ball sits in the kitchen (behind the line) yet actual contact happens outside the kitchen. Is this allowed?

141.jpg
 

GoldCrown

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If the object ball is not 1/2 over the line it is not playable? Woundn't that shot be a foul.
What is the given rule of playing an object ball over or under the line?
 
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Jude Rosenstock

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If the object ball is not 1/2 over the line it is not playable? Woundn't that shot be a foul.
What is the given rule of playing an object ball over or under the line?

That's not entirely the rule. You can play an object ball that sits in the kitchen by kicking at it. I can't say I've seen that play a whole lot in 14.1 but it's allowed. The only rule i can find about shooting from the kitchen is below.

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.
 

alphadog

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The rule states cb crosses line.Before contacting ob.
If cb is across the line it can legally contact ob in kitchen.
Bob says he wants video of someone pocketing the object ball.


You answered your own ?:grin-square:


Further review...shot as diagrammed wouldnt be legal as
Cb wouldnt have "cleared" the line!
 
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zencues.com

AzB Silver Member
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If the bottom of the ball, where the ball contacts the cloth,
is not on the head string and it's inside the kitchen... then you cannot shoot it.


You can shoot outside the kitchen, by hitting a rail first, then come back and hit the one ball.
But you cannot hit the one ball directly even if the cue ball is fully outside the kitchen when contact is made.
You must hit a rail first.
 
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Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
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I actually agree that it's illegal. If it's not, it should be. The question is twofold. Can you find an actual rule that bans it?
 

Jude Rosenstock

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If the bottom of the ball, where the ball contacts the cloth,
is not on the head string and it's inside the kitchen... then you cannot shoot it.


You can shoot outside the kitchen, by hitting a rail first, then come back and hit the one ball.
But you cannot hit the one ball directly even if the cue ball is fully outside the kitchen when contact is made.
You must hit a rail first.

Please specify the actual rule you're referencing.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The rule states cb crosses line.Before contacting ob.
If cb is across the line it can legally contact ob in kitchen.
Bob says he wants video of someone pocketing the object ball.


You answered your own ?:grin-square:


Further review...shot as diagrammed wouldnt be legal as
Cb wouldnt have "cleared" the line!

The diagram is meant to illustrate a point. The specifics of actual ball placement shouldn't really matter. You have BIH in the kitchen. If you get the cue ball to cross the head string, what rule says I can't cut a ball in the kitchen?
 

Michael Fedak

AzB Silver Member
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It is legal now......

Bob Jewett had a column in Billiard Digest in January 2008 on page 34 (after writing the new standardized world rules) with this EXACT diagram with some fraction of the object ball was over the head string. It was LEGAL because the CB was, by necessity, entirely over the head string when it cut the ball back up into the upper corner. Contact with a rail is no longer required. I am not computer savvy enough to put it on this reply, but Bob is the guy to confirm this.
If you have your old copies, it is there.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett had a column in Billiard Digest in January 2008 on page 34 (after writing the new standardized world rules) with this EXACT diagram with some fraction of the object ball was over the head string. It was LEGAL because the CB was, by necessity, entirely over the head string when it cut the ball back up into the upper corner. Contact with a rail is no longer required. I am not computer savvy enough to put it on this reply, but Bob is the guy to confirm this.
If you have your old copies, it is there.

Mike thanks for this. It's a fascinating scenario because truthfully, I feel the rules paint the illusion that this object ball is not allowed to be played but that's apparently not the case. I asked Leyman and unfortunately he was busy so he couldn't review the rules with me but promised to get back to me shortly.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We ran into this in a 14.1 tournament in the 80's, the center of the cue ball has to cross the line before contact. The illustrated shot is legal.

I seriously think it would take giant balls to try this shot without any knowledge of how a referee might interpret it. I think the confusion on this thread shows how a ref could easily go either way. Unless, of course, you had the same discussion we're having now.
 

Michael Fedak

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here it is -

Jude-

I don’t see that BD archives his old columns on their website, but I found his article at the San Francisco Billiards Academy archive under “The Letter of the Law -- The new WPA World Standardized Rules” in the 2008 (number 1) group at this address:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

It has a PDF version and he explains it better than I can.
Great post by you.
 

poolmouse

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I seriously think it would take giant balls to try this shot without any knowledge of how a referee might interpret it. I think the confusion on this thread shows how a ref could easily go either way. Unless, of course, you had the same discussion we're having now.


Agreed, whenever there is any question I'll always ask the referee.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2
 

Bob Jewett

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I have never seen a situation where the shot came up, so it doesn't really make a lot of difference whether it's allowed to back-cut an object ball that's in the kitchen when you have ball in hand. In any case, it is allowed by the current (2008) rules provided that the cue ball has crossed the headstring before it contacts the object ball. It's also allowed to shoot a masse shot that leaves but does not contact any cushion before returning to the kitchen to hit a ball. I haven't seen that in actual play, either.
 

Bob Jewett

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If the bottom of the ball, where the ball contacts the cloth,
is not on the head string and it's inside the kitchen... then you cannot shoot it.


You can shoot outside the kitchen, by hitting a rail first, then come back and hit the one ball.
But you cannot hit the one ball directly even if the cue ball is fully outside the kitchen when contact is made.
You must hit a rail first.

That rule changed in 2008. The current World Standardized Rules are here: http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play
 

Bob Jewett

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Summary. The shot is an illegal hit.

Not if the cue ball crossed the head string before contacting the object ball. The diagram shows it crossing the head string before contact. The shot shown in the diagram in the OP is legal.
 
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