How Good Was Minnesota Fats?

Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Honestly, I know as much about this guy as anyone else. I know that he was not a "tournament player" and even though he was a "hustler", I never heard of a single player he actually hustled. My question is simply this: Really, how good was this guy? I know that although he may not have been Mosconi's speed, he was no clown either.

Please, this question is directed at those that actually SAW him play or those that have somewhat reliable information (ie., a story about a personal friend). Please do not refer to a Wide World of Sports video.
 
Gerry

Gerry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From some of the books I've read Jude, He was feared in his prime!....I believe his games were banks and one pocket. I'll look around again to find the info.

Gerry
 
skins

skins

Likes to draw
Silver Member
this is what i've heard over the years. rudolf wanderone jr. was mostly a big time gambler dealing allot in horse racing. he really wasn't that good a pool player. he talked a better game than he played. he really couldn't hang with the pro's.
 
T

tom haney

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
Honestly, I know as much about this guy as anyone else. I know that he was not a "tournament player" and even though he was a "hustler", I never heard of a single player he actually hustled. My question is simply this: Really, how good was this guy? I know that although he may not have been Mosconi's speed, he was no clown either.

Please, this question is directed at those that actually SAW him play or those that have somewhat reliable information (ie., a story about a personal friend). Please do not refer to a Wide World of Sports video.
Click to expand...

Lucky Joey, who was from NYC but was a top
player in Charleston, WV, for years told me
about watching Fats & Ray Martin match up
years ago in 1 hole in NYC.
He said Fats' game was intimidation & if he
couldn't intimidate a top player , he couldn't
win. He said Martin won every single game & took
every penny Fats had. And Fats tried every trick
in the book on him.
 
Tom In Cincy

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
I saw Fats play in the late 60s in Memphis TN at People's Billiards. He'd responded to an offer to match up with a local for 5 figures.

The game was One Pocket and Fats kept close but needed to resort to his famous 'chatter' to rattle the local (wish I could remember this guys name) and Fats ended up with a 'push'.

I wasn't impressed with Fat's game, as much as I was with his 'chatter' He knew what, how and when to say what was needed to gain an edge. He knew the moves, and made some great shots look easy.

But, the constant chatter... I'll never forget
 
Island Drive

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Tom In Cincy said:
I saw Fats play in the late 60s in Memphis TN at People's Billiards. He'd responded to an offer to match up with a local for 5 figures.

The game was One Pocket and Fats kept close but needed to resort to his famous 'chatter' to rattle the local (wish I could remember this guys name) and Fats ended up with a 'push'.

I wasn't impressed with Fat's game, as much as I was with his 'chatter' He knew what, how and when to say what was needed to gain an edge. He knew the moves, and made some great shots look easy.

But, the constant chatter... I'll never forget
Click to expand...

Fatty was in his prime during the 1940's, few on this board were alive in his prime.
 
ribdoner

ribdoner

SATISFACTION GUARANTEED
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
Honestly, I know as much about this guy as anyone else. I know that he was not a "tournament player" and even though he was a "hustler", I never heard of a single player he actually hustled. My question is simply this: Really, how good was this guy? I know that although he may not have been Mosconi's speed, he was no clown either.

Please, this question is directed at those that actually SAW him play or those that have somewhat reliable information (ie., a story about a personal friend). Please do not refer to a Wide World of Sports video.
Click to expand...

I played him some $20 9-ball at the "GOLDEN EIGHTBALL-??" off of RUSH ST (close to the PLAYBOY CLUB) in CHI in 64 or 65.

Using a Tulsa 10 rating system he was a 8 or at best a weak 9 speed. 9-ball was not his best game and I wouldn't play ANYTHING else. For those more familiar with APA type rating he would have beat most, but not all, APA 7's. I watched him play one hole in JOHNSON CITY and that was a much better game for him. He played well enough too like it unless he played one of the top players.

I thought I was getting his best game for 20 a pop but U never know.....:cool:
 
Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
Back in the 1960’s in a department store in a Valley Stream, NY mall Fat’s was putting on an exhibition to sell his line of pool tables. My dad who played on the road in his younger day, but was about an A or A- at this point started ragging on Fat’s that he was all mouth. They went over to the Guy’s & Dolls poolroom and played one game of 14.1 for $1200 (all my dad had) race to 150. Fat’s started his sharking crap on my dad right from the start. My dad told him if he opened his mouth when he was shooting again he'd knock him on his a$$. (My dad fought pro in the late 1920’s and the early 1930’s). Anyway my dad beat him 150 to 80 something. He didn’t look all that good in 14.1 to me. But he could bank balls well. Johnnyt
 
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Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lewdo26 said:
I'm gathering he was shortstop speed with lots of gamble?
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That's the impression I'm under but would he have really gotten that much attention? I mean, it would have been fairly obvious to even the untrained eye if he were just a shortstop.

Thus far, the responses have been great! I'm actually really impressed with some of the stories that have been posted!
 
B

ballblaster

New member
I never met the man,but I'm currently reading "Hustler Days" by R.A.Dyer.
It gives a broad (no pun intended) background about Fats, beginning with him as Broadway Fats, and how he began hustling.
 
Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ballblaster said:
I never met the man,but I'm currently reading "Hustler Days" by R.A.Dyer.
It gives a broad (no pun intended) background about Fats, beginning with him as Broadway Fats, and how he began hustling.
Click to expand...


Actually, I just finished the book which is why I asked the question. It's a good book and I really enjoyed it but it paints a much better picture of the other players it focuses on.
 
L

lewdo26

Registered User will do
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
That's the impression I'm under but would he have really gotten that much attention? I mean, it would have been fairly obvious to even the untrained eye if he were just a shortstop.

Thus far, the responses have been great! I'm actually really impressed with some of the stories that have been posted!
Click to expand...
That's a good question, Jude. But I think back then, because pool was gambling and gambling was pool you could get that kind of recognition for just being a good gambler. Today, since tournaments define the player, the standards are more well-defined...

Furthermore, I imagine Fats appealed mostly to a lay audience and actual tournament pros, like your Mosconis, Cranes and whatnot weren't fooled one bit. I get this from McGoorty's bio I read a while ago. He's got a few stories about Fats in there.
 
Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
lewdo26 said:
That's a good question, Jude. But I think back then, because pool was gambling and gambling was pool you could get that kind of recognition for just being a good gambler. Today, since tournaments define the player, the standards are more well-defined...

Furthermore, I imagine Fats appealed mostly to a lay audience and actual tournament pros, like your Mosconis, Cranes and whatnot weren't fooled one bit. I get this from McGoorty's bio I read a while ago. He's got a few stories about Fats in there.
Click to expand...


What a coincidence! I actually pulled the McGoorty book from the shelf today to reread.
 
L

lewdo26

Registered User will do
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
What a coincidence! I actually pulled the McGoorty book from the shelf today to reread.
Click to expand...
I love the thing, but I'm reading so many books right now, it'd be insanity trying to re-read one more.
 
J

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jude Rosenstock said:
Honestly, I know as much about this guy as anyone else. I know that he was not a "tournament player" and even though he was a "hustler", I never heard of a single player he actually hustled. My question is simply this: Really, how good was this guy? I know that although he may not have been Mosconi's speed, he was no clown either.

Please, this question is directed at those that actually SAW him play or those that have somewhat reliable information (ie., a story about a personal friend). Please do not refer to a Wide World of Sports video.
Click to expand...

I've cut-and-pasted this post from Keith McCready before, but I thought it applied to this thread. So here it is again! The post was written on July 20, 2003, on CCB. :)

Matter of fact, I did play Minnesota Fats. Actually, I was the last guy that he played for money before he passed.

I was in St. Louis competing in a pool tournament when I was about 19 or 20. Many of the best pool players of that era were in attendance, including Ronnie Allen who was good friends with the fat man. I was the up-and-coming star at this time, my game not even at its peak, and Fats, I believe out of curiosity, wanted to see how good I played. He had been hearing about this young kid from California, and Ronnie, with his usual gift of gab, got the game going.

I was one of the very few privileged individuals given this opportunity to gamble with Minnesota, as he liked to be called, and what a show it was, one of the best times I have ever had in my life and something that I will never forget. I played him a nickel a game, 8 to 7, one-pocket, and then I spotted him 10 to 8 playing banks. He was a perfect gentleman, very funny, and the games were all pretty close. We were cutting up with each other, and if you think I'm funny, you should have seen him. He was the ultimate entertainer when he was at the table, a real crowd-pleaser, and this was a very unique show between a living legend and a kid. "How, do you like me now, Junior?," he would bellow out after making a good shot, and then as he would approach his next shot, he would turn to the crowd and make gestures towards me. I ate it up, laughing just as hard, if not harder, as everybody else. The whole joint was pulling for Fatty, which I don't blame them. If I wasn't playing, I would have been rooting for him, too. I ended up beating him out of 8 dimes, and he paid me off: 4,000 in $500 bills and the rest in C-notes. He autographed every single one of those $500 bills as he handed them to me. They were priceless, and I sure do wish I still had them. I was on the road with a guy named Charlie the Ape then, and for whatever reason, Charlie went south with my winnings, stealing every single one of those signed $500 bills. But there is one thing that nobody can ever take away from me, and that is this wonderful memory, one I will always cherish, of playing Rudolph Wanderone a/k/a Minnesota Fats.

Years later, I was living in Nashville, and word came out that Fats was very ill and in the hospital. I went to see him and he knew who I was, and even though he didn't feel good, he still maintained his sense of humor. He was talking about old times, laughing and smirking. A week later, he passed.

JAM
 
Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
JAM said:
I've cut-and-pasted this post from Keith McCready before, but I thought it applied to this thread. So here it is again! The post was written on July 20, 2003, on CCB. :)

Matter of fact, I did play Minnesota Fats. Actually, I was the last guy that he played for money before he passed.

I was in St. Louis competing in a pool tournament when I was about 19 or 20. Many of the best pool players of that era were in attendance, including Ronnie Allen who was good friends with the fat man. I was the up-and-coming star at this time, my game not even at its peak, and Fats, I believe out of curiosity, wanted to see how good I played. He had been hearing about this young kid from California, and Ronnie, with his usual gift of gab, got the game going.

I was one of the very few privileged individuals given this opportunity to gamble with Minnesota, as he liked to be called, and what a show it was, one of the best times I have ever had in my life and something that I will never forget. I played him a nickel a game, 8 to 7, one-pocket, and then I spotted him 10 to 8 playing banks. He was a perfect gentleman, very funny, and the games were all pretty close. We were cutting up with each other, and if you think I'm funny, you should have seen him. He was the ultimate entertainer when he was at the table, a real crowd-pleaser, and this was a very unique show between a living legend and a kid. "How, do you like me now, Junior?," he would bellow out after making a good shot, and then as he would approach his next shot, he would turn to the crowd and make gestures towards me. I ate it up, laughing just as hard, if not harder, as everybody else. The whole joint was pulling for Fatty, which I don't blame them. If I wasn't playing, I would have been rooting for him, too. I ended up beating him out of 8 dimes, and he paid me off: 4,000 in $500 bills and the rest in C-notes. He autographed every single one of those $500 bills as he handed them to me. They were priceless, and I sure do wish I still had them. I was on the road with a guy named Charlie the Ape then, and for whatever reason, Charlie went south with my winnings, stealing every single one of those signed $500 bills. But there is one thing that nobody can ever take away from me, and that is this wonderful memory, one I will always cherish, of playing Rudolph Wanderone a/k/a Minnesota Fats.

Years later, I was living in Nashville, and word came out that Fats was very ill and in the hospital. I went to see him and he knew who I was, and even though he didn't feel good, he still maintained his sense of humor. He was talking about old times, laughing and smirking. A week later, he passed.

JAM
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JAM, thank you! This is perfect!
 
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