Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page Stats -- Van Boening vs. Orcollo 10-Ball Race to 120, November 2019
Reply
Page 2 of 3 12 3
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old
  (#16)
Island Drive
AzB Silver Member
Island Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond reputeIsland Drive has a reputation beyond repute
 
Island Drive's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,914
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Colorado
   
11-10-2019, 06:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I found one stat very interesting. After over 200 games, not one ten ball was made on the break! So someone tell me again why the ten ball shouldn't count if made on the break. But the nine ball does count.
Why? Because your dealing with ''Pool Players''. Cats have a hard time changing their stripes.


www.worldbilliardtour.com
Domain Name Only....

Bill Meacham
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#17)
Nostroke
AzB Silver Member

Nostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond reputeNostroke has a reputation beyond repute
 
Nostroke's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 11,776
vCash: 10475
iTrader: 6 / 100%
Blog Entries: 21
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: NY and Fla
  Send a message via MSN to Nostroke  
11-10-2019, 07:02 AM

EDIT Bad question

Last edited by Nostroke; 11-10-2019 at 07:36 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#18)
garczar
AzB Silver Member
garczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond reputegarczar has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 9,035
vCash: 500
iTrader: 13 / 93%
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Murica
   
11-10-2019, 07:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostroke View Post
Any stats on packages?
B&R packages are listed there.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#19)
Low500
AzB Silver Member
Low500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond reputeLow500 has a reputation beyond repute
 
Low500's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 1,635
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2017
   
11-10-2019, 07:30 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I found one stat very interesting. After over 200 games, not one ten ball was made on the break! So someone tell me again why the ten ball shouldn't count if made on the break. But the nine ball does count.
What he said makes absolute perfect sense and perfect logic......................(that's why the 'pool big shots' don't do it)
Go figure...


"It is almost impossible to free simpletons from the chains they revere."

Last edited by Low500; 11-10-2019 at 07:35 AM.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#20)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,910
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
11-10-2019, 09:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nostroke View Post
Basically they played the 10 ball had to be the last ball made.
This is now a rule in the World Standardized Rules. I didn't like it at first but I think it fits with the idea of reducing the luck factor in 10 ball vs. 9 ball. It is interesting that two pretty good players chose this for a long match.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#21)
pt109
WO double hemlock

pt109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond repute
 
pt109's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 28,144
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: out of country but incontinent
   
11-10-2019, 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
This is now a rule in the World Standardized Rules. I didn't like it at first but I think it fits with the idea of reducing the luck factor in 10 ball vs. 9 ball. It is interesting that two pretty good players chose this for a long match.
Itís also eliminating the skill factor of combos and caroms.


Lionize your game.
http://www.alexpagulayan.com/

MAGIC CHALK call Marco Polo 647-287-8131

If pool players had to have knowledge of geometry and physics before talking about geometry and physics, all of the aiming threads would disappear.

Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#22)
BeiberLvr
AzB Silver Member
BeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond reputeBeiberLvr has a reputation beyond repute
 
BeiberLvr's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 7,968
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
   
11-10-2019, 10:59 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
Itís also eliminating the skill factor of combos and caroms.
I agree. People tend to over complicate things.

Call shot takes away the two-way shot, and as you said, no early 10-ball takes away the skill of combos and caroms.

Want to reduce the luck factor, while still keeping the skill?

Just make the game call shot on the 10 only.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#23)
Bob Jewett
Northern California

Bob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond reputeBob Jewett has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 16,910
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 12 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
   
11-10-2019, 11:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pt109 View Post
Itís also eliminating the skill factor of combos and caroms.
And I think those shots are interesting to spectators, but if the break shot rolls the 2 over on the 10 by the pocket, the seated player is glad for the rule. It would be interesting to know whether both players wanted the rule or maybe one player was worried about his opponent's combo/carom skills.


Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#24)
pt109
WO double hemlock

pt109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond reputept109 has a reputation beyond repute
 
pt109's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 28,144
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: out of country but incontinent
   
11-10-2019, 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
And I think those shots are interesting to spectators, but if the break shot rolls the 2 over on the 10 by the pocket, the seated player is glad for the rule. It would be interesting to know whether both players wanted the rule or maybe one player was worried about his opponent's combo/carom skills.
I think a set of rules should allow the game to be played at itís highest level.
I donít see anything wrong with possible multiple outcomes....like 3-cushion billiards.

I sense that some of these...in my mind..negative rules have grown out of fear, vanity,
and the hope that oneís opponent gets hit by a bus on their backstroke.

I like rules that cater to the player at the table...the player seated has no right to say anything...
...unless a rule is broken.

I exclude straight pool and banks from these conditions...they work best as call shots.


Lionize your game.
http://www.alexpagulayan.com/

MAGIC CHALK call Marco Polo 647-287-8131

If pool players had to have knowledge of geometry and physics before talking about geometry and physics, all of the aiming threads would disappear.

Bob Jewett
SF Billiard Academy
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#25)
AtLarge
AzB Gold Member
AtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 11,041
vCash: 500
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2008
   
11-10-2019, 12:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeiberLvr View Post
... Call shot takes away the two-way shot, and as you said, no early 10-ball takes away the skill of combos and caroms. ...
WPA rules do not eliminate the most common form of 2-way shot, where you play to make a ball but leave your opponent safe if you miss. Under WPA rules, the option to return a shot happens only in the cases of (1) pocketing a ball on a called safety, (2) pocketing the called ball in a wrong pocket, or (3) pocketing a non-called ball when missing the called ball. There is no option to return the shot after a normal missed shot, so most 2-way shots are not eliminated.

A second type of two-way shot is where you try to make either or both of two balls. E.g., the 5-ball is the lowest-numbered ball on the table and you try to make either the 5-ball or the 10-ball (which might be hanging near a pocket). WPA rules require that you designate only one ball and one pocket, so they eliminate this type of two-way shot.

The rules do not do away with combos and caroms. You can use them to pocket any ball. And if you make one on an early 10-ball, you get to try it again later!
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#26)
AtLarge
AzB Gold Member
AtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 11,041
vCash: 500
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2008
   
11-10-2019, 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeephawk View Post
And just out of curiosity, is a stat ever kept for how often after a played safety the other player ends up making a legal ball?
By my notes, Orcollo made a ball on the next shot after about one-third of SVB's safeties, whereas SVB made a ball on the next shot after about one-sixth of Orcollo's safeties.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#27)
AtLarge
AzB Gold Member
AtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 11,041
vCash: 500
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2008
   
11-10-2019, 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jay helfert View Post
I found one stat very interesting. After over 200 games, not one ten ball was made on the break! So someone tell me again why the ten ball shouldn't count if made on the break. But the nine ball does count.
You want me to bring up the 2013 Southern Classic Bigfoot event again?

The number of 10's on the break is greatly reduced with the use of a racking template; the 10-ball tends to stay (unfortunately, as I see it) within inches of where it starts.

And as to your comparison with 9-Ball, yeah, it shouldn't count there, either.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#28)
jeephawk
AzB Gold Member
jeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond reputejeephawk has a reputation beyond repute
 
jeephawk's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 237
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Iowa
   
11-10-2019, 01:25 PM

Thanks for the reply - interesting stat to me!
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#29)
AtLarge
AzB Gold Member
AtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond reputeAtLarge has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 11,041
vCash: 500
iTrader: 77 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2008
   
11-10-2019, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Drive View Post
Enjoyed your statistics....This one tho....''Stuck Out''.



■ Van Boening broke 119 times -- successful 106 times
Yes, 89% successful breaks for SVB. And he made balls on 2 of his 3 fouled breaks, so he made at least one ball on 108 of his 119 breaks -- 91%. In his match with Shaw in August, they made one or more balls on 88% of their breaks. Here's what I wrote at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
At least one ball was made on 168 of these 192 breaks -- the 159 successful breaks plus all 9 fouled breaks That's 88%. And 55% of the games were run out by the player at the table after the break. For skilled breakers using a template, 10-Ball now suffers from the same problems that plagued 9-Ball -- "dead" balls on the break, repetitious layouts after the break, and limited interplay among the players.

A few years ago I suggested trying 10-Ball with the 10-ball on the spot. The Renfro experimented with it a bit and thought it might have some value for addressing those issues, but the subject seemed to get dropped. I'd like to see it tried in some pro event, perhaps a challenge match between good 10-Ball breakers (rather than in a big tournament), to see how it would fly.

Another possibility is to leave the 1-ball on the spot, but use a break box that moves the cue ball away from the center area of the table. Some of Appleton's 8-Ball events did that, and Van Boening played a 10-Ball challenge match with Chinakhov 4 years ago using side-rail break boxes.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#30)
jay helfert
Shoot Pool, not people
jay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond reputejay helfert has a reputation beyond repute
 
jay helfert's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 27,323
vCash: 500
iTrader: 136 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2004
   
11-10-2019, 01:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AtLarge View Post
WPA rules do not eliminate the most common form of 2-way shot, where you play to make a ball but leave your opponent safe if you miss. Under WPA rules, the option to return a shot happens only in the cases of (1) pocketing a ball on a called safety, (2) pocketing the called ball in a wrong pocket, or (3) pocketing a non-called ball when missing the called ball. There is no option to return the shot after a normal missed shot, so most 2-way shots are not eliminated.

A second type of two-way shot is where you try to make either or both of two balls. E.g., the 5-ball is the lowest-numbered ball on the table and you try to make either the 5-ball or the 10-ball (which might be hanging near a pocket). WPA rules require that you designate only one ball and one pocket, so they eliminate this type of two-way shot.

The rules do not do away with combos and caroms. You can use them to pocket any ball. And if you make one on an early 10-ball, you get to try it again later!
There are way too many "rules" for Ten Ball that do not exist in 9-Ball. Ten Ball is inherently a more difficult game just by adding one ball and making the rack triangular and not diamond shaped. When players used to gamble at Ten Ball we used the exact same rules as 9-Ball and it worked out just fine. In my opinion that is still the best way to play Ten Ball, with Texas Express 9-Ball rules. Why bastardize a game that doesn't need it? I will guarantee you the best players will still be the ones winning the tournaments! And it will be far more exciting (and simpler to understand) for the audience as well.

Of course many of the "powers that be" will not agree with me and prefer to make every shot call shot, ten ball the last ball, alternate break, and on and on. IMO a bunch of guys who wouldn't bet two big dogs could lick one small one.


http://www.jayhelfert.com/ to order More Pool Wars

Last edited by jay helfert; 11-10-2019 at 01:34 PM.
  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 2 of 3 12 3

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.