Is it legal to mark rails with chalk for kicking?

PocketSpeed11 · Oct 17, 2016

I was rewatching one of Bigtruck's videos on youtube that included Eric Durbin and James Davis Jr. Durbin played pretty amazing. But in one game he got hooked on the five ball and he was using his cue to make angle calculations on the kick. However, you can see him twisting the cue to make a chalk mark on the railing felt. The blue chalk on blue Simonis cloth makes for a subtle marking, but it is clear enough to make out. I've never seen a professional do this. Is it legal?

Here's the vid: https://youtu.be/1ufZyEv4RSE?t=32m42s

PhilosopherKing · Oct 17, 2016

PocketSpeed11 said:
I was rewatching one of Bigtruck's videos on youtube that included Eric Durbin and James Davis Jr. Durbin played pretty amazing. But in one game he got hooked on the five ball and he was using his cue to make angle calculations on the kick. However, you can see him twisting the cue to make a chalk mark on the railing felt. The blue chalk on blue Simonis cloth makes for a subtle marking, but it is clear enough to make out. I've never seen a professional do this. Is it legal?

Here's the vid: https://youtu.be/1ufZyEv4RSE?t=32m42s

i don't think it makes or breaks the shot at that or any level

Celophanewrap · Oct 17, 2016

PocketSpeed11 said:
I was rewatching one of Bigtruck's videos on youtube that included Eric Durbin and James Davis Jr. Durbin played pretty amazing. But in one game he got hooked on the five ball and he was using his cue to make angle calculations on the kick. However, you can see him twisting the cue to make a chalk mark on the railing felt. The blue chalk on blue Simonis cloth makes for a subtle marking, but it is clear enough to make out. I've never seen a professional do this. Is it legal?

Here's the vid: https://youtu.be/1ufZyEv4RSE?t=32m42s

Not even in the APA

BRussell · Oct 17, 2016

It's even listed as Unsportsmanlike Conduct in WPA rules.

pt109 · Oct 17, 2016

Yes, marking the rail with chalk is illegal.

But if I was gambling...they could mark the rails all they want.....
...don't see the advantage.
You can hit a spot on the rail several times and have the cue ball go different places.

As a matter of fact, if a strange player marked the rail to kick....
...i might let out a sigh of relief....
....it means it's not Reyes in disguise....

pickngrin · Oct 17, 2016

BRussell said:
It's even listed as Unsportsmanlike Conduct in WPA rules.

Here's the WPA rules section:

6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.

justaplayer · Oct 17, 2016

If you aim with your cue and make a mark, it should be removed. You can't put chalk on the rail either, though guys do it.

BRussell · Oct 17, 2016

It's a tough one to call because it's really common to line up shots with your cue stick. I looked at the video and it didn't look like much. He twisted his cue a bit. And it's not like you can't remember where the spot is: "one inch to the left of the diamond," or "2 1/3 diamonds from the pocket" or whatever. Like PhilosopherKing and pt109 say, it's hardly some big advantage anyway.

Bavafongoul · Oct 17, 2016

No....never....cannot use any aids or marking of the cloth whatsoever.......ever.

In fact in 14.1, you can't even lay your cue flat on the table to aim a shot..you must hold your cue when aiming.

p.s. This was discussed on the Forum over 10 years ago....here's an excerpt.

3.42 DEVICES
Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball
would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot, so long
as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct.

MuchoBurrito · Oct 17, 2016

I do this accidentally sometimes.

I play with talcum powder on my shaft when it gets humid, so when I run my shaft along the rail to shoot (or try to visualize a point on the table) it sometimes leaves a little white line on the rail that could be mistaken as marking the rail.

brentinps · Oct 17, 2016

It is interesting to note that in APA :

while one cannot mark the felt with chalk.. it is known in our league under APA rules one can "legally" place the chalk on the top of a rail or anywhere "off of the felt area" to serve as a visual guide/mark when shooting any shot.

I have not done this because I am old school and feel somewhat guilty doing it.

gregcantrall · Oct 17, 2016

MuchoBurrito said:
I do this accidentally sometimes.

I play with talcum powder on my shaft when it gets humid, so when I run my shaft along the rail to shoot (or try to visualize a point on the table) it sometimes leaves a little white line on the rail that could be mistaken as marking the rail.

It would not be mistaken for marking the rail. It is marking the rail. Intention does not matter.

Bavafongoul · Oct 17, 2016

APA rule is just dumb.......the rails are part of the table itself, not just the felted portion.
No sight aids should be allowed anywhere on the pool table, felted or not, it's a No-No.

MuchoBurrito · Oct 17, 2016

gregcantrall said:
It would not be mistaken for marking the rail. It is marking the rail. Intention does not matter.

So then, technically speaking, how do I avoid this? When using the talc, the shaft leaves a trace on the rail, whether I want it to or not. Unless I have a slightly damp rag to wipe down the rail, it stays.

Skippy27 · Oct 17, 2016

Bavafongoul said:
APA rule is just dumb.......the rails are part of the table itself, not just the felted portion.
No sight aids should be allowed anywhere on the pool table, felted or not, it's a No-No.

Dumb or not in your opinion, it is still the rule. How many coaches do you get in the WPA during your match?

Think of whom the APA is catering to first off. Then realize it is not much different than people that use the "spot on the wall" or dirt on the cloth method.

Would even be the same as me holding my finger there while I coach until you get your aim and then I walk away.

MuchoBurrito · Oct 17, 2016

Skippy27 said:
Dumb or not in your opinion, it is still the rule. How many coaches do you get in the WPA during your match?

Think of whom the APA is catering to first off. Then realize it is not much different than people that use the "spot on the wall" or dirt on the cloth method.

Would even be the same as me holding my finger there while I coach until you get your aim and then I walk away.

I love spot on the wall.

arps · Oct 17, 2016

sometimes i leave my chalk on "that point" when i do a kick-shot. is that illegal?

Bavafongoul · Oct 17, 2016

Different....you walk away and take the spot as well....the other person has no speciifically
marked (intentionally) spot to aim for.....the same applies in golf. Your caddie can line you up
but has to step away when you putt.

APA is like house rules....you accept it or don;t play.......doesn't make the rule sensible, at
least not to my way of thinking. I look at APA more as social rules but it violates the very
idea of outside aids.....it is wrong and I view it as a cheating aid.......what's next? No feet
on the floor rules? Someone will argue it discriminates against short people. It is a rule
that should not be ignored, same as touch fouls on object ball or cue ball.

As was pointed out, APA can do what they want....it is basically a self regulated entity with
rules that don't make sense to me but that's why I don't play on either 7' tables or in APA.

robsnotes4u · Oct 17, 2016

arps said:
sometimes i leave my chalk on "that point" when i do a kick-shot. is that illegal?

Yes

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

PhilosopherKing · Oct 18, 2016

Is there anything in the rules regarding the number and spacing of diamonds on a table?

Is it legal to mark rails with chalk for kicking?

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