2019 WPA World 9 Ball - Qatar

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
With all due respect, based on the statement above, it is clear that you lack a basic understanding of the strategies of either game.

I see no reason for me to further my involvement in this discussion.

No problem, if that’s your perception. How my perception that there are some shots in 9 ball that require more thought than in snooker leads you to that conclusion escapes me though. Even Steve Davis said that the thing he most liked about playing 9 ball was the thinking element of the game. Also, the only reason I mentioned snooker in the first place was as a response to someone saying snooker players play faster than pool players.

We can agree to disagree though. Which is what I’ve been doing all along - disagreeing with the idea that there is only one solution to a problem.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I watch a lot of snooker and find this not to be the norm at all. There are a couple slow players(Ebdon is slowwww) but most don't mess around, they shoot pretty quick in most cases. That 9b final was the most painfully slow game of any cuesports i've ever watched and i only got thru half of it.

Yes they get on with it most of the time. Despite there in theory being a range of options there is usually only one correct, or rather optimal, shot. Good players know which shot to take.
 

jasonlaus

Rep for Smorg
Silver Member
With all due respect, based on the statement above, it is clear that you lack a basic understanding of the strategies of either game.

I see no reason for me to further my involvement in this discussion.

Welcome to the club:thumbup:
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the head of the snooker governing body announced last year that they will counteract slow play by "name and shame" the slow players. slow play has since decreased. an article about it: https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/06/snoo...g-fast-slowest-players-named-shamed-10698231/

for 9-ball pool i think a shot clock is the only way forward. wasn't there a shot clock before the move to doha?

No, there was no shot clock before the move to Doha.

Snooker’s issue is with “slow” players whose average shot time is long. Here we are talking about players whose natural rhythm is slow. Generally, it doesn’t take long to make a decision in snooker - the patterns when the reds are on the table are familiar, as are the decisions whether to play safe, play a weak safety, or take on a big pot. There really aren’t that many tough decisions and when there are the players take their time. The rotation part of the game when the reds are gone is largely a familiar pattern too - all pretty standard.

In 9 Ball, the play is more complex but a good experienced player should be able work out what to do pretty quickly. When there is a really tough decision (and I think they happen more often in terms of a decision to shot ratio), it’s better for the game if the players take some time to think about it. I guess that’s why there’s the option of an extension and why the players use that option.
 

Cardigan Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No, there was no shot clock before the move to Doha.

Snooker’s issue is with “slow” players whose average shot time is long. Here we are talking about players whose natural rhythm is slow. Generally, it doesn’t take long to make a decision in snooker - the patterns when the reds are on the table are familiar, as are the decisions whether to play safe, play a weak safety, or take on a big pot. There really aren’t that many tough decisions and when there are the players take their time. The rotation part of the game when the reds are gone is largely a familiar pattern too - all pretty standard.

In 9 Ball, the play is more complex but a good experienced player should be able work out what to do pretty quickly. When there is a really tough decision (and I think they happen more often in terms of a decision to shot ratio), it’s better for the game if the players take some time to think about it. I guess that’s why there’s the option of an extension and why the players use that option.

I don’t think you actually sat down and watched the entire final to the world championship that brought this all up. Please tell me if you did and I will retract my view, but I don’t think any....any...fan of cue sports can sit and watch this 4 hour match, race to 13, and say they are entertained. I watched for 3 hours and 20 minutes that day, and I started watching 40 minutes late. During the match, I set my tablet down at times...made coffee, posted here on az, did some on-line banking, made breakfast for a kid, and even sorted through a pile of junk mail. Basically, the match became a test of wills....”already invested 2 hours, why not 30 minutes more?” (30 minutes later) “already invested 3 hours, why not 30 minutes more”

And I’m a fan of pool! And here I was not even caring about outcome, strategies, tactics...I just wanted it over so I could go to the gym.

You are telling me, you sat and watched this entire match and concluded “no, this is part of the beauty of 9 ball, players should take more time on shots”?

So if I am wrong and you actually sat down and invested 4 hours of your life to watch this final between Gorst and JL Chang, then Please sit down and watch last year’s final with Filler vs Biado...it is literally played at double the speed of this final, and the players never looked rushed. And the quality of the final product is 100 times better than what we saw this year.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don’t think you actually sat down and watched the entire final to the world championship that brought this all up. Please tell me if you did and I will retract my view, but I don’t think any....any...fan of cue sports can sit and watch this 4 hour match, race to 13, and say they are entertained. I watched for 3 hours and 20 minutes that day, and I started watching 40 minutes late. During the match, I set my tablet down at times...made coffee, posted here on az, did some on-line banking, made breakfast for a kid, and even sorted through a pile of junk mail. Basically, the match became a test of wills....”already invested 2 hours, why not 30 minutes more?” (30 minutes later) “already invested 3 hours, why not 30 minutes more”

And I’m a fan of pool! And here I was not even caring about outcome, strategies, tactics...I just wanted it over so I could go to the gym.

You are telling me, you sat and watched this entire match and concluded “no, this is part of the beauty of 9 ball, players should take more time on shots”?

So if I am wrong and you actually sat down and invested 4 hours of your life to watch this final between Gorst and JL Chang, then Please sit down and watch last year’s final with Filler vs Biado...it is literally played at double the speed of this final, and the players never looked rushed. And the quality of the final product is 100 times better than what we saw this year.

No I didn’t watch the final. I understand everyone’s frustration and I’m sure I would have felt the same way. Yes, shot clocks would have made the slow play problem evaporate. All I am saying is they are not the only answer and that using this particular final/tournament as an argument for them isn’t helpful in the long run. Equally unhelpful is using snooker, where many major tournament don’t have shot clocks The WPC needs to be promoted and run properly. The use of shot clocks is secondary and while it can help, it’s not essential as there are other ways to speed up (or rather not slowdown) the game.
 

chevybob20

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Methinks that watching players on a high quality TV production with a physical audience, two commentators bouncing off each other and a clock visibly (and eventually audibly) running down gets the adrenaline pumping just a little in the casual viewer who has tuned into a major 9 ball pool championship. And maybe even some of the pool fans.

In a room in the middle of nowhere, with no or pretty much no spectators, no TV exposure, niche at best internet exposure - well a particular type of, shall we say pedantic, pool viewer will complain about players taking as long as the regular shot clock on a regular basis.

If it were me, on that table at that stage of that championship, I’d take as long a time as needed or more (never less). The only reasons for taking less time are being in a hurry cos you’ve got to be somewhere else (rather unlikely), bottling it, being an idiot, or because there is a shot clock. It would be an unrealistic expectation for players in this tournament to want to fall into any of those categories.

Maybe stop complaining about the lack of stopclocks. The problems with the World Championship run much deeper than this. If they get resolved, there will be a 45 second stop clock. You might not have the patience to watch it but the players have the patience to try to win it.
Slow play is a knife to the liver of pool.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No I didn’t watch the final. I understand everyone’s frustration and I’m sure I would have felt the same way. Yes, shot clocks would have made the slow play problem evaporate. All I am saying is they are not the only answer and that using this particular final/tournament as an argument for them isn’t helpful in the long run. Equally unhelpful is using snooker, where many major tournament don’t have shot clocks The WPC needs to be promoted and run properly. The use of shot clocks is secondary and while it can help, it’s not essential as there are other ways to speed up (or rather not slowdown) the game.

which other way then?
 

chevybob20

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think



The WPA in it’s current form is a knife to the liver of pool.



is a better take on things.
No, it's not.

Nobody will watch that crap. What a horrible display and what a complete waste of half of a day.

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Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
No I didn’t watch the final. I understand everyone’s frustration and I’m sure I would have felt the same way. Yes, shot clocks would have made the slow play problem evaporate. All I am saying is they are not the only answer and that using this particular final/tournament as an argument for them isn’t helpful in the long run. Equally unhelpful is using snooker, where many major tournament don’t have shot clocks The WPC needs to be promoted and run properly. The use of shot clocks is secondary and while it can help, it’s not essential as there are other ways to speed up (or rather not slowdown) the game.

Nope, sorry I disagree completely (apart from mismanagement being a huge factor in pools journey towards demise). This slow player trend is not brand new, it's been going on for a few years now. Ruiz and Kaci, the glacial kid and all the rest are slowly but surely ruining the audience experience of every pool fan. It needs to end, right now. These players won't listen to anything but a shot clock. They think they have a huge advantage because they can play well, slowly, while others can't. So they get to ice their opponents arms even when they don't run many racks. They're not going to quit, unless forced. They either need to be uninvited or have a shot clock put on them.

You said yourself that you didn't watch the final, well there's the problem right there. Nobody could watch that whole thing, it was complete torture. The only sponsors that are willing to sponsor something like this, are those that have a sort of stake in the event occuring (pool equipment). If you want pool to grow, it needs to be attractive to other kinds of sponsors. In order for it to be attractive to other sponsors it needs to be watchable. I think it's unrealistic to market pool to the general public, in the West at least, but at least make it watchable for the niche crowds! You may get a few outside sponsors in the same general direction (other game equipment, gambling websites etc). The whole tragedy of the WPC happened because there was no one willing to pay what the WPA wanted, other than the Quatar people. If you want pool out of that shithole, someone will have to come up with a way to make it semi-profitable again. Spending 5 minutes on a simple shot is not the way to do that.

If we disregard the WPC for a moment, slow play is also extremely disruptive to tournaments, causing them to last longer, cost more and generally be more difficult to manage properly. This behavior needs to be eradicated.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Penalty............

Nope, sorry I disagree completely (apart from mismanagement being a huge factor in pools journey towards demise). This slow player trend is not brand new, it's been going on for a few years now. Ruiz and Kaci, the glacial kid and all the rest are slowly but surely ruining the audience experience of every pool fan. It needs to end, right now. These players won't listen to anything but a shot clock. They think they have a huge advantage because they can play well, slowly, while others can't. So they get to ice their opponents arms even when they don't run many racks. They're not going to quit, unless forced. They either need to be uninvited or have a shot clock put on them.

You said yourself that you didn't watch the final, well there's the problem right there. Nobody could watch that whole thing, it was complete torture. The only sponsors that are willing to sponsor something like this, are those that have a sort of stake in the event occuring (pool equipment). If you want pool to grow, it needs to be attractive to other kinds of sponsors. In order for it to be attractive to other sponsors it needs to be watchable. I think it's unrealistic to market pool to the general public, in the West at least, but at least make it watchable for the niche crowds! You may get a few outside sponsors in the same general direction (other game equipment, gambling websites etc). The whole tragedy of the WPC happened because there was no one willing to pay what the WPA wanted, other than the Quatar people. If you want pool out of that shithole, someone will have to come up with a way to make it semi-profitable again. Spending 5 minutes on a simple shot is not the way to do that.

If we disregard the WPC for a moment, slow play is also extremely disruptive to tournaments, causing them to last longer, cost more and generally be more difficult to manage properly. This behavior needs to be eradicated.
Start hittin' 'em with game penalties and this shit will stop. Quick. I'd give a player two extensions(maybe three depending on set length) per set. After that hit 'em with a game penalty. See how fast these snails get it in gear.
 

BRussell

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another aspect of the shot clock, in addition to speeding up play, is the excitement of the countdown. Many/most sports have clocks, where the pressure increases for the audience as it winds down. When a player has to shoot with just a few seconds left, as has happened several times in the Mosconi and other tourneys, it adds to the entertainment value. Even if there are alternatives to speed up play (which I doubt), I still like the shot clock.
 

Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
well, "consulting the players" will not work. with pool players there's no talk softly without carrying a big stick.

Why not? Surely if the whole tournament suffered from an unusual amount of slow play, asking for the thoughts of the players is in order. Maybe most of them will say they think shot clocks is the answer, maybe they will provide some insight regarding the environment? But yes of course you need a stick as well to manage a tournament.

What started with me making comments about the WPC in it’s wider context has descended in part into me being pinpointed by some as an advocate for slow play. Many people here who disagree with me make good points, even those who have made snidey comments (including the ones that appear to me to be uncharacteristic). The weight of opinion suggests that you are all heavily in favor of shot clocks and that you don’t think this is the thread to be discussing other aspects related to this. That’s fine. I’ll leave it there.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why not? (consult the players) ...
It depends on how it is done and who the players are. I have seen tournaments come to a total stop when the players were given a voice in the proceedings. Several loud idiots are sufficient to spoil the barrel. If a few knowledgeable veterans as asked for their opinions privately, that's another matter.

"Hey, everyone, let's gather around Table 4 and vote on whether we are going to have a shot clock or not." -- sure sign the tournament director will have problems, and soon.
 
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Swighey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It depends on how it is done and who the players are. I have seen tournaments come to a total stop when the players were given a voice in the proceedings. Several loud idiots are sufficient to spoil the barrel. On the other hand, if a few knowledgeable veterans as asked for their opinions privately, that's another matter.

"Hey, everyone, let's gather around Table 4 and vote on whether we are going to have a shot clock or not." -- sure sign the tournament director will have problems, and soon.

I don’t see it as the tournament directors job to do this. I’m thinking more about the WPA consulting the players, particularly knowledgeable veterans , about why the play was unusually slow - when the dust has settled.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don’t see it as the tournament directors job to do this. I’m thinking more about the WPA consulting the players, particularly knowledgeable veterans , about why the play was unusually slow - when the dust has settled.
The WPA, like most sporting orgs. needs a czar, someone who is dictatorial and maybe even a bit of an ass. Having players giving input is ok but you really need a take-no-shit captain at the helm. I don't see anything like this at the WPA. Its nothing but a paper tiger run by a bunch of bureaucrats.
 
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