Playing against handicap 8-ball

FLICKit said:

When playing a lower rated player, much has already been said.

Control the table... Do not make all of the easy balls, and leave yourself with the difficult balls last. You have to smartly free up your balls. And when the run-out shows itself, take it and finish it. When you do that, then your opponent becomes quite helpless, especially since he doesn't have the necessary skills to counter that.

In general, you want an open table. Since you're the better player, then when the run-out shows itself you are more likely to finish it, or at least recover by good defense, than your opponent is. So keep it open if he's not likely to run it out, and avoid any trap situations (i.e. killer defensive moves that your opponent can do).

Control the cue ball... You definitely want to remove the chances of losing by fluke. So slow down the CB, if it or any other balls has even a remote chance of getting near the 8 ball. This means you'll have to be very aware of where the 8 ball is. And definitely free up any problem balls near the 8 ball and definitely do it safely.

Balance is a key part too. Obviously you don't have to take a chance with high risk run-outs. When playing a higher rated player, sometimes you have to take that kind of risk, because he has a better chance of breaking out the trouble balls and fininshing the run-out. But, when playing a lower rated player, those high risk run-outs aren't so necessary. So you can slow down a bit and manage things much smarter. Here's where the balance comes in, because if you slow down too much, then you give the weaker player a legitimate chance to beat ya.

8 on the break is unnecessary. If you're already better than your opponent, then you have a high percentage of winning straight up. If you have a break that you use for 8 ball breaks, then now is not the time to use it. Hit the head ball straight on. You can hit it relatively hard, but you don't have to kill it.

Click to expand...

Excellent post. I agree with all of this, including techniques I use with great success against weaker players, and some that I don't use effectively to my advantage, but should.

-Andrew

FLICKit said:

8 on the break is unnecessary. If you're already better than your opponent, then you have a high percentage of winning straight up. If you have a break that you use for 8 ball breaks, then now is not the time to use it. Hit the head ball straight on. You can hit it relatively hard, but you don't have to kill it.

Click to expand...

They're all great points but this is an especially good one!


"Now is not the time Kato"

SHOCK AND AWE!

Seriously, my 8-ball strategy barely changes. When I went out to the BCA Championships last May, I was unbelieveably impressed with how great some of the players out there are. If anyone plans to go, they should camp at the Grand Masters matches.

Once you gain a sense of how great 8-ball is played, it's the only thing you want to try to do. No matter what skill level I'm playing against, I have a standard break where I hit the apex ball as hard as I can. Especially on a barbox, I expect to make a ball. If I do, I look to see if I can run-out. Like I said, if you've been to the BCA Championships in Vegas, you learn to appreciate which tables are runnable (most) and which ones aren't.

I find this strategy to work against almost every rating. 5s, 6s and 7s are typically forced to try to match me game for game by attempting run-outs and failing. 2s and 3s simply don't have the pocketing skills to keep me off the table. 4s are the bane of my existance. Usually, they possess enough knowledge and pocketing ability to get out when they're supposed to and the race is short enough for them that if I happen to make a couple mistakes, it could cost me the set. My goal when I play them is game to game. Try to tie up the match as quickly as possible which is usually enough to get them to fold.

In fact, that is pretty much my strategy against anyone I'm giving out weight to. Start off strong and get the handicap out of the way. Usually, a lower ranked player will give-up after that. Seriously, I can actually cite every single time I have eliminated the handicap within the first few games and lost over the past year. To put it another way, I know if I start off a handicapped set with a loss, my chances of losing the set increase exponentially.

For your 8-ball break, practice breaking with the cue ball in the center (as opposed to from the side), then hit the head ball full on. Break by hitting the cue ball 1/2 to 1 tip below center.

Try to get cue ball to stop dead after breaking or come straight back. Slow your break speed down if losing control of the cue ball. This break should give you a good spread of the balls and if your aiming is right, you will not scratch. (With too much speed, aiming goes out the window, you might hit the headball on the side rather than head on, and then can scratch in a side pocket. Slow down to improve aiming if this happens.)

The object of the break is to leave the cue ball in the central area of table so you will have a choice of solids or stripes for your first shot, have a good spread of the balls with no clusters, and pocket at least one ball.

To avoid scratching in general, get Dr. Daves DVD and learn about the 30 and 90 degree rules. Get that DVD here...
http://dr-dave-billiards.com/cd_dvd/dvd_description.html

Robbie said:

Cant agree with this either. I definitely play the player and the race. There is definitely such a thing as momentum, and I want to do my best to get it on my side. The goal I have in my head is to not only beat the person Im playing, but to make them never want to play me again. And sometimes this will affect my shot selection.

A perfect example was a 9ball match. I was up, and not letting my opponent see much. He was an SL6 I believe, he could shoot pretty decent. I eventually sewered (at an unreal angle) and gave him BIH on the 6. He ran to the 9, but didnt get good position, and decided to play a safety, putting the cue ball to the middle of the top rail, leaving the 9 at the middle of the bottom rail. In a lot of situations, I would play a safety back at him. But because I was already up in the race, and because I knew I had him rattled already, I played the long bank, and focused on making it as hard as I could. My thinking was, he was pretty happy with how this 'safety' turned out for him, he played a good shot. If I just stepped up and banked it in, it would crush him. It would rattle him even more, and if he got back to the table again, it would be with a lot less confidence, maybe some fear of missing. Its easy to finish someone off like that. Also because I was up in the race, if I didnt make the bank, it wouldnt have been the end of the world.

Click to expand...

Well thats great when you are up, and a risky shot helps build confidence. That is great.....but

what happens when you are down? What about not being in stroke that night? Are you still going to go up there and try to "crush him" or are you going to play what the table gives you?

I'm not at all pointing you out, just wondering how someone on the other side of the fence is thinking?

Kimmo said:

I know I run a risk of going off on a tangent here....but couldn't let that pass... Having just finished the "Pleasures of small motions" for the second time (it takes a couple of reads to really grasp everything), I would say that the above given advise is exactly the wrong thing to do (the first part).

Click to expand...

Wait a minute, my advice is the "wrong thing to do" because you read a book?

Seems like what you described, is to play to your ability and giving your opponent low percentage shots. Seems like you are playing the table to me.

Also, how are you going to know someones weak points if you've never played them before. All you know, is that they are a SL 2/3/4. I'm a 4 and I can honestly tell you now, if your strategy is to leave me banks, back cuts, kicks, and tough position shots. It is going to be an early night for you and +1 for my team.

Jude Rosenstock said:

SHOCK AND AWE!

Start off strong and get the handicap out of the way. Usually, a lower ranked player will give-up after that... I know if I start off a handicapped set with a loss, my chances of losing the set increase exponentially.

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more. If I get the handicap out of the way before they win their first game, I am VERY confident of the win. Even if I am playing an under-ranked player, I feel good about an even race. If I lose that first game by either making a mistake, or a lucky out by a lesser player, it does change the match and force me to think more defensively, to ensure they do not get another.

Originally Posted by Bugz
Well thats great when you are up, and a risky shot helps build confidence. That is great.....but

what happens when you are down? What about not being in stroke that night? Are you still going to go up there and try to "crush him" or are you going to play what the table gives you?

I'm not at all pointing you out, just wondering how someone on the other side of the fence is thinking?

Click to expand...

My only point there was that "the race", or where I am in the race, does play a part in how I play. If I am down, my goal is still going to be to try to swing the momentum to my side. This may mean grinding a little harder, playing some run and hide, playing only higher % shots. When Im up, I can be a little more risky, because I think the payoff is going to be greater than simply potting a ball. Its going to affect how my opponent is thinking.

Believe me, Ive had many nights where Im just not feeling it, and I have to grind out every single shot, maybe rely more on my potting ability than my positional play, because its just not there that night. Different nights, different situations, different plays. This was just a response to the idea of "Play the table, not the player or the race".

Last week I totally wasnt feeling it in my 9ball match. Im an 8 and I had to play a 3. She was at 16 points when I was at 4. THAT was a grind to win. Trust me, no long banks for me in that match!

Jude Rosenstock said:

SHOCK AND AWE!

Seriously, my 8-ball strategy barely changes...

Once you gain a sense of how great 8-ball is played, it's the only thing you want to try to do. No matter what skill level I'm playing against, I have a standard break where I hit the apex ball as hard as I can. Especially on a barbox, I expect to make a ball. If I do, I look to see if I can run-out...

I find this strategy to work against almost every rating. 5s, 6s and 7s are typically forced to try to match me game for game by attempting run-outs and failing. 2s and 3s simply don't have the pocketing skills to keep me off the table. 4s are the bane of my existance. Usually, they possess enough knowledge and pocketing ability to get out when they're supposed to and the race is short enough for them that if I happen to make a couple mistakes, it could cost me the set...

Click to expand...

If you're a 7 or 6 level player, then that's fine. But possibly if you're a 5 level player or less, then that becomes very risky. I've seen many a player at that lower level just stupidly shoot their way into trouble. Whereas, if they learned the skills to play smart, then they'd be much more successful. For example, every 3 level player or even bar banger tries to run-out whenever they get to the table. Yet, 90% of the time, they will fail. A smarter player can exploit that very easily.

Hypothetical: if you took a 7 level player who encountered a debilitating injury or illness, such that they could only pocket balls at 3 level. That player could still be quite successful, simply by being able to outplay their opponent by being smarter. As the poker saying goes, "you have to know when to hold em, and know when to fold 'em".
Another example, if you took a 3 level player, showed them some basic speed control. Then, if you could coach 'em on every shot... You could make 'em a very successful player. And I guarantee it wouldn't be by telling the 3 to run out, every time. Instead, it would be about playing smart for that level.

But, as I said, if it's a high level player, then I agree the run-out strategy can have merits.

Bugz said:

Wait a minute, my advice is the "wrong thing to do" because you read a book?

Seems like what you described, is to play to your ability and giving your opponent low percentage shots. Seems like you are playing the table to me.

Also, how are you going to know someones weak points if you've never played them before. All you know, is that they are a SL 2/3/4. I'm a 4 and I can honestly tell you now, if your strategy is to leave me banks, back cuts, kicks, and tough position shots. It is going to be an early night for you and +1 for my team.

Click to expand...

oh don't get me wrong...I am not an expert or anything...I am just interested in different opinions and the reasoning behind them. There was a good case in the book and it made sense to me....if you have another case that would make sense to ignore your opponent, I am more than happy to hear it!

I think it's always good advise to play to your ability, but knowing the level of the opponent can help I'd say. Perhaps you're ready to play with a little more aggression in the beginning of the rack against someone you believe is not likely to run out than against someone that is likely to do so.
I know it sounds a little confusing and I am not the best person to explain it either...
Also in the book there are whole chapters about the mental processes (scientifically studied) and these indicated that trying to close something out of your mind is not the right way to go about it. It's like saying to yourself "Don't think of a pink elephant" and lo and behold...what is the first thing that runs through your mind.... I think the point is that you have to put your mind at ease about the opponent (by assessing (hopefully correctly) his level) then your brain is free to concentrate on the things it should be doing...ie shooting the damn shot.

As far as the levels go that you mention...they don't mean anything to me as I play here in Holland and there's no such rating system. I am not great player myself so you'd probably beat me...sure.. but if I know your speed and I know my speed...I can adjust my game to give me the best shot at winning. So if I know that you're good at dropping those banks in or difficult cuts, maybe I try to totally hook you....so you only have 2c escapes leaving only <10% chances on any pot....or perhaps I try to run out myself then if that's the only option I have... Now if I knew that you were usually not able to pot more than 3-4 balls in a row and have a run-out perhaps only in 1/10 on a full table...I'd perhaps play differently...I'd perhaps try to run out myself...and if I face too low-percentage shot for me...happily try to play a good safety...knowing that you still have all your balls on table and you'll be likely to let me back on table again.....

Anyway....it was not my intention to say that you are wrong, just bringing an alternative theory stating that ignoring your opponent is in real life impossible...and therefore it is better to deal with it and perhaps use to your advantage if you can.

Cheers,
Kimmo

PS. I am also no expert on psycho-babble (and barely literate in english )...just trying paraphrase things from the book....perhaps someone else here that as read the book can help.

FLICKit said:

If you're a 7 or 6 level player, then that's fine. But possibly if you're a 5 level player or less, then that becomes very risky. I've seen many a player at that lower level just stupidly shoot their way into trouble. Whereas, if they learned the skills to play smart, then they'd be much more successful. For example, every 3 level player or even bar banger tries to run-out whenever they get to the table. Yet, 90% of the time, they will fail. A smarter player can exploit that very easily.

Hypothetical: if you took a 7 level player who encountered a debilitating injury or illness, such that they could only pocket balls at 3 level. That player could still be quite successful, simply by being able to outplay their opponent by being smarter. As the poker saying goes, "you have to know when to hold em, and know when to fold 'em".
Another example, if you took a 3 level player, showed them some basic speed control. Then, if you could coach 'em on every shot... You could make 'em a very successful player. And I guarantee it wouldn't be by telling the 3 to run out, every time. Instead, it would be about playing smart for that level.

But, as I said, if it's a high level player, then I agree the run-out strategy can have merits.

Click to expand...

FLICKit,
You are obviously a very knowledgeable and experienced 8-ball player. Excellent posts.

APA LO said:

Soft breaking is not allowed. The team manual states that you must break as hard as you can with control.

Opening the game with a cluster of balls doesn't assure you of anything.

What I would do is break at the head ball and take the risk of scratching on an 8 Ball break out of the equation. The other thing to do is reduce the amount of low percentage shots you might normally take or shots that require turning the cue ball loose. And of course play defense when there isn't a better option.

Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose a match. It's why we all play the game.

Click to expand...

"break as hard as you can with control"

It doesn't state how much control.
If I want precision control, then my break will be less than 75% of my power. And if I want precision CB control, then I will use about 50% or less of my power.

Please keep in mind that my "soft break" is hard enough to not get disputed. I usually break out 10 balls with 4 or 5 clustered.

I actually stopped using my soft break because I have found the 8B in the side pocket break is much better. If the 8B doesn't fall on the break, then about 75% or more of the balls are clustered on the long rail. Which gives me the advantage because I can bank, carom, and kick better than most in my division.

I don't agree 100%. My reasons why...

Andrew Manning said:

I play run-out 8-ball when I'm in stroke, and everyone in my league that I would call a "much weaker player" does not. Instead, the "much weaker players" rely on strategy, blocked pockets, and tied up balls to be able to give themselves a chance against a stronger player. If I were to soft break, that would nullify my advantage and play straight into their strengths.

So against a very weak player, on my break I bust the balls open as hard as I can, usually make one or two, and then attack my problem balls to get them out into the open. Sometimes I can break them out just right, and run out the rack. Other times when I miss (since I just don't break and run out all the time, sad as that makes me), the SL4 will consistently either dog a ball or fail to execute a safety, and I'm out. It's the exact opposite of what you'd want to do against a good player, but against a much weaker player, I win almost 100% of my racks of 8-ball.

The times I lose are when the balls are tied up enough that I can't get mine free during the course of the run, and it ends up coming down to just a few balls on the table. At that point, I will consistently either go for a break-out and mess it up so I have opened the balls up but I can't get out, or I will go for a safety which is very difficult due to the small number of balls on the table and miss by an inch and sell out.

So break really hard and get a good start on the runout, including the part where you move your balls that need moving. At that point, you win if you don't miss, and against a weak player, you also win if you do miss.

-Andrew

Click to expand...

I play against guys that can B&R 4 or 5 games in a row. And I have found that I can bring them to their knees with safety play. And it works against all skill levels. The key is to get my balls in position for a run out while tying up my opponents balls. Covering pockets is one key point. And this doesn't bring my game down at all. Precision cue ball control is needed for good safety play.

If you think shooting at one of your balls and covering a pocket with it...while using the cue ball to glance other balls for positioning your other balls at or near pockets and/or glancing your opponents balls to cluster or rail freeze them.....all on one shot....is a strategy that "much weaker players" rely on.....then I think you are mistaken.

Assuming that you are playing a much weaker player...is another mistake. We all know there are sand baggers out there. And when a sand bagger decides to let their game out on you, they have a big advantage. If you don't B&R 5 games in a row, then you will probably lose to a professional sand bagger. If you play with my style of 8 ball, then your opponent will have to be an strong 7 skill level to run it out, and that is with a lot of caroming or forcing his balls through my pocket-blocking balls. If a low skill level player does that, then that is when you need to get the League Operator involved. Especially, when there is an SL3 that B&Rs, and makes masse shots look easy.

Now, don't get me wrong...if I have a run out after the break, then I will take it.

I have shown players what good safety play can do. I have had SL7's B&R up to the 8 ball, and miss the 8B. Then, I would show them how I position my balls for the high percentage run out while not leaving them the 8 to shoot at. I know one SL7 that knows all too painfully how effective safety plan can be, but to his note, he cannot control the cue ball with enough precision to play good safeties. Therefore, he goes for the run out. And I beat him 90% of the time. He's working on his safeties.

Even with my strategy for 8 ball, I have had players run out a rack on me, when I had 60-80% of the balls clustered. But that is rare, and to their note, they were in dead stroke.

my 2 cents...

FLICKit said:

If you're a 7 or 6 level player, then that's fine. But possibly if you're a 5 level player or less, then that becomes very risky. I've seen many a player at that lower level just stupidly shoot their way into trouble. Whereas, if they learned the skills to play smart, then they'd be much more successful. For example, every 3 level player or even bar banger tries to run-out whenever they get to the table. Yet, 90% of the time, they will fail. A smarter player can exploit that very easily.

Hypothetical: if you took a 7 level player who encountered a debilitating injury or illness, such that they could only pocket balls at 3 level. That player could still be quite successful, simply by being able to outplay their opponent by being smarter. As the poker saying goes, "you have to know when to hold em, and know when to fold 'em".
Another example, if you took a 3 level player, showed them some basic speed control. Then, if you could coach 'em on every shot... You could make 'em a very successful player. And I guarantee it wouldn't be by telling the 3 to run out, every time. Instead, it would be about playing smart for that level.

But, as I said, if it's a high level player, then I agree the run-out strategy can have merits.

Click to expand...

"Another example, if you took a 3 level player, showed them some basic speed control."

I had an SL 3 on my team, and he hit the balls to hard. I told him just to hit the ball hard enough to cover the pocket. If it goes in, then great, shoot again. If not, then it'll probably still be there for later. And to my surprise....he actually listened to me. And what do you know, he was top shooter in the division for his tier level, and went up to an SL4 after winning nearly all of his matches. Even against SL5s.

My strategy is...if you don't have a run out after the break, then create a run out for later in the game.