Pool solutions - from golf's predicament??

hsbilliards said:

Mark Griffin, great initial post by the way.

The billiard industry needs to SERIOUSLY have discussions on how to expand the market.

To me it is very sad in the state the industry has come to. I am the Team Leader for the U.S. and Canada Juniors going to China in two weeks and there has been VERY little support for these juniors going. Jeanette Lee tried hard along with a few others with limited success. Absolutely a shame in my opinion.

The juniors should be a high priority within the industry.

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This is something that some people will be able to get behind. I don't mind donating to the BEF if this is what its about.

When people come together to help something it might not be a bad idea to recognize them in some sort of way.

If you can figure out a little something to be able to do for people this creates a group of like minded individuals that would likely donate again or yearly. Get their email addresses send them something out, have a tournament once a year for people who do donate...create some action...that gets people involved with one another having a good time.

Pool is supposed to be about Fun and Involvement.

Put up an address we can send funds to please.

336Robin said:

This is something that some people will be able to get behind. I don't mind donating to the BEF if this is what its about.

When people come together to help something it might not be a bad idea to recognize them in some sort of way.

If you can figure out a little something to be able to do for people this creates a group of like minded individuals that would likely donate again or yearly. Get their email addresses send them something out, have a tournament once a year for people who do donate...create some action...that gets people involved with one another having a good time.

Pool is supposed to be about Fun and Involvement.

Put up an address we can send funds to please.

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:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

sjm said:

Every game but eight ball, the one game that is well known in America, is broken because of its obscurity.

The problem with pool is not the game itself but how poorly it has been sold.

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The problem with pool on TV is::
a) playing a game most people don't know (9-ball instead of 8-ball),
b) trying to justify the wrong game because it is exactly the right length of time between commercials.

336Robin please go to the BEF site www.billiardeducation.org, it has a lot of info on what the BEF is doing. Samm Diep-Vidal has worked very hard along with past executive directors to focus on growing junior programs. It also has address information if you would like to donate. Ideas, suggestions, and volunteer participation is always welcome too. Together the players and industry working steadily with purpose and fiscally responsible financial resources this billiard industry WILL grow to new levels. I truly believe that. Thank you for your ideas and support.

Pool is a weed that will always find a way to stay alive, no matter how badly it's managed.

JCIN said:

The coolest thing I saw in that video was the golf nightclub. The only problem is I bet very few of the people there buy gear and go out to a traditional golf course to play a three or four hour round. So while something like that does introduce people to the game (sort of) it probably doesnt have much if any meaningful impact on getting people to actually play the game itself outside of that unique venue of the night club.

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I agree. That was the a cool take away from the video and I immediately looked up the closest one to me. I am a golfer and thought that place looks like a lot of fun.

Also you are right about it not having much impact on getting people to play the game. Everyone in that clip did not have a golfer's golf swing, they were just looking for the good time out.

I'm sure a night out at that place is pretty expensive considering that it is golf related, sports bar related (with alcohol) plus the tech that went into that place (chipped balls, computers, scoring, etc), but for a good time like that I wouldnt mind doing it on occasion.

Icon of Sin said:

I agree. That was the a cool take away from the video and I immediately looked up the closest one to me. I am a golfer and thought that place looks like a lot of fun.

Also you are right about it not having much impact on getting people to play the game. Everyone in that clip did not have a golfer's golf swing, they were just looking for the good time out.

I'm sure a night out at that place is pretty expensive considering that it is golf related, sports bar related (with alcohol) plus the tech that went into that place (chipped balls, computers, scoring, etc), but for a good time like that I wouldnt mind doing it on occasion.

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Sort of the same as APA, most team members just looking for a good time out.

when there's a great pool show on every week it will lead more people to playing.

I think it goes without saying that when there's a great pool show on every week it will lead more people to playing.

The game as it is won't be watched or played any more than it is currently.....and I expect it to go down even further if something isn't changed to make the game strategic again.

Paul Schofield said:

CJ wants people to watch pool. It would be nice to get people to play pool.

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Thank you for starting this thread Mark. There are quite a few things the pool world can learn from the golfing world.

The foremost one in my opinion is to have a place that is inviting to come too, with good equipment. The common person is not going to walk into a pool room and feel comfortable. There seems to be a negative uninviting feeling when you step into a new room. Most pool rooms do not have a welcoming feeling when you walk through the doors. If you add that up with the stereotype that the room is full of hustlers, or players that just want to make it quick payday. Then it will keep people away from the game. This negative condentation that most people have of our beloved sport, is what is killing it.

Most parents are not going to feel comfortable being in these rooms by themselves. Now if they feel uneasy about being in this type of environment, then you can bet they will not bring there children there. There has been very few pool halls I have entered that I would actually take my son to. I don't know exactly how to cure this part of the problem with pool. But I can tell you this "The more welcome and comfortable I feel, the more I am going to open my wallet"

Just my two cents.

Albatross Cues said:

Thank you for starting this thread Mark. There are quite a few things the pool world can learn from the golfing world.

The foremost one in my opinion is to have a place that is inviting to come too, with good equipment. The common person is not going to walk into a pool room and feel comfortable. There seems to be a negative uninviting feeling when you step into a new room. Most pool rooms do not have a welcoming feeling when you walk through the doors. If you add that up with the stereotype that the room is full of hustlers, or players that just want to make it quick payday. Then it will keep people away from the game. This negative condentation that most people have of our beloved sport, is what is killing it.

Most parents are not going to feel comfortable being in these rooms by themselves. Now if they feel uneasy about being in this type of environment, then you can bet they will not bring there children there. There has been very few pool halls I have entered that I would actually take my son to. I don't know exactly how to cure this part of the problem with pool. But I can tell you this "The more welcome and comfortable I feel, the more I am going to open my wallet"

Just my two cents.

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You make a good point and family centers may be the future of pool. There was a place like that opened in New Orleans. Fantastic traffic count, in a major shopping complex. The place was squeaky clean, bright, I couldn't find a flaw with it. It was also as empty as a church on Monday morning when I went in it both times. I wanted to play, the equipment was perfect, I walked out without playing both times. Saw similar places in Prairieville and Baton Rouge. I suspect the Baton Rouge place does OK with leagues and the date crowd. The New Orleans place is long gone, don't know about Prairieville.

We may save pool and change it so much we don't know it anymore and don't really want to know it.

Hu

Too true, Hu, Too true...

Change Pool?

ShootingArts said:

You make a good point and family centers may be the future of pool. There was a place like that opened in New Orleans. Fantastic traffic count, in a major shopping complex. The place was squeaky clean, bright, I couldn't find a flaw with it. It was also as empty as a church on Monday morning when I went in it both times. I wanted to play, the equipment was perfect, I walked out without playing both times. Saw similar places in Prairieville and Baton Rouge. I suspect the Baton Rouge place does OK with leagues and the date crowd. The New Orleans place is long gone, don't know about Prairieville.

We may save pool and change it so much we don't know it anymore and don't really want to know it.

Hu

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Hu,
You have a point to consider.

When I was a kid growing up playing barbox pool in a Recreation Center the place teemed with kids on the weekends and that eventually spilled into the week nights as well.

The place was a social oasis for kids.

I cant imagine that these places could still not exist. The key is affordable fun. I believe kids would still find our traditional Pin Ball, Foosball and Pool Fun as long as you have machines for updated video games as well. You can have free chess boards, sell drinks, candy, chips maybe refridgerator sandwiches.

As long as you offer more things there will be a market for it but you have to go market the business!

Many owners don't market their business. They just build it and wait for people to come.

There are too many new things to do and that is not going to happen.

I say find a way for people to embrace marketing and you will find a way to increase the popularity of pool.

I know I am going to tick off the Pool Room Owner crowd here but here goes the rest.

I live in North Carolina. People will play some pool at $4 dollars an hour but generally only if they have everything else paid for and its because they aren't earning a whole lot and they really want to play pool but at that rate they play an hour and maybe 2 and then its over.

A wise and wealthy man once told me: You will never make any money unless you employ OPT and OPM.

That is Other Peoples Time and Other Peoples Money.

So first you need other people. In order to do that you simply have to offer a value of some kind.

What is better several groups who come and play 1 to 2 hours twice a week or a lot of groups that come play for hours on end at a cheaper rate?

I say more groups who come and have fun, stay longer and perhaps buy more things you have to sell because you are offering a value.

Im sorry but many places do not offer a value to the customer and that is a big thing wrong with pool. You can justify that pool is worth $10 to $12 dollars an hour but that doesn't mean you will find people to pay for it. Get over it, things have changed.

If pool is the poor mans golf, then you have to realize that the working class man many of them are making Minimum Wage and they need a value for their money if they are going to spend it otherwise they will develop more affordable habits other than pool.

Yes it is about the economy and the availability of good paying work and this is an important piece. The market has changed. You either adapt or flounder around barely making it.

That's just the way I see it. You cant lie to yourself. You must market, You must adjust to conditions and many either don't want to or refuse to.

TATE said:

Nice story. I liked it. I think golf will recover but at a lower level. I quit golfing in the 1990's when golf became overexposed. Courses became crowded, expensive and miserably slow. The onslaught of newbies (presumably from Tiger's popularity) literally ruined the game and I am sure I am as guilty of that as anyone when I was learning the game. I plan on golfing again soon and many of us boomers will when we move away from the crowded metro areas and retire.

Check out the bowling alley decline saga.These are probably not coming back in my opinion.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-10/america-s-vanishing-bowling-alleys

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interesting that you bring up bowling. let's face it, all three of these sports discussed are not very physical. some call them games rather than sports. for any sport to survive you need new blood, young ones taking up the sport. and they don't. why? because of this piece of plastic lcd hickey i'm sittin in front of right now!

here, in my little european country, half of the kids i know play some kind of physical sports endorsed by their parents or school, football, hockey, basketball, etc. that's good, yes, but the rest are sitting by their computers or xboxes day in day out. my little cousin spends almost all hours behind the computer screen, and always has. and his parents wonders why his attention span is short or non-existent... he even medicates for it.

most of the young kids in my pool club are guys who didn't have a computer when they were young, kids from poor families.

this is how it is now. but i think and hope there will come a backlash, a movement where younger people seeks traditional entertainment where they actually meet real people.

Market, Market, Market

Mark Griffin said:

I was sent this by a business associate.
A LOT of similarities between golf and pool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFEYC4Z44v0

You will love some of the discussions - and possible solutions.
I found it very interesting.

Mark Griffin

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Mark,
I watched this and yes this is Pools story as well.

OPT and OPM.....from another of my posts. Other peoples time and Other peoples money...but first you have to have Other People but in order to do that you have to confront your own demons and get them into a Pool Room even if its free pool to capture their attention. That doesn't mean you give out free pool to existing pool player without marketing. If you don't market it to other ...new people....that effort is wasted. How you do that doesn't have to be expensive but it needs to be effective. Personal Marketing works. You simply invite people to come play. When they get there you have something to hold their attention and you have affordable equipment and lessons.

The tables are there. People want entertainment but they have a lot vying for their attention. They need value, they need support. They need to be brought into the idea that Pool is fun.

The economy has changed. The market has changed, businesses that depend on whether or not you build it they will come will have to learn marketing to a crowd, getting them in, charging a fee they can afford and giving value in order to keep a loyalty amongst its target audience.

If the audience is poorer by economic standards that would mean that the recreational outlet will have to adjust or successfully market to a higher demographic.

Getting room owners to effectively market to a higher demographic is likely not happen but getting them to market isn't impossible. Some of these ideas I am working on but ideas aren't worth much unless you have someone willing to do them. So they have to be easy to do, real easy to do. I think its likely that someone will have to come up with a package or bag of tricks and be willing to do consulting work that shows people how to increase customers and actually do it and prove that it can be done on a minimum of effort and expense.

That consultant getting paid?...oh yeah....another endless conundrum....but build it and they will come? not happening.

Its good we have the Pool League System in this country otherwise pool would have a faster slide than it does now.

I do think that we are slowly getting what is going on with pool but finding people brave enough to confront their demons and do what the market is asking is going to be something else.

I just got around to watching this video and I found it very interesting. What has always been puzzling to me is why more disgruntled golfers don't find their way to pool. My hunch is the days of the middle class embracing golf are dying. These middle class folks still have competitive desires that need to be satisfied. Pool seems like a natural place for them to migrate. They just need to be targeted in some way. I could see the APA doing some sort of targeting. How about a campaign where if you sign up for our pool league and you bring in a golf club, you will leave with a cue stick?

So many ideas....so little time......and so little money.

As far as professional pool is concerned, I've come to the conclusion that it will never again be "saved" by any one person or organization. I think what's going to happen with many of the niche sports and games throughout the world is that they will grow incrementally as the world continues to become smaller. If you could take all the small groups of pool fanatics that are dispersed throughout the globe and combine them into one large group, what you would end up with is a bunch of nuts that somebody would have to start paying attention to. We are all only a click away from each other and sooner or later we will all be viewed as one large group of potential customers.

ShootingArts said:

You make a good point and family centers may be the future of pool. There was a place like that opened in New Orleans. Fantastic traffic count, in a major shopping complex. The place was squeaky clean, bright, I couldn't find a flaw with it. It was also as empty as a church on Monday morning when I went in it both times. I wanted to play, the equipment was perfect, I walked out without playing both times. Saw similar places in Prairieville and Baton Rouge. I suspect the Baton Rouge place does OK with leagues and the date crowd. The New Orleans place is long gone, don't know about Prairieville.

We may save pool and change it so much we don't know it anymore and don't really want to know it.

Hu

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From the standpoint of a business owner, the problem with pool tables in a family entertainment center is the amount of square footage required.

The most basic measure of a retail business is "revenue per square foot." Go into any well run retail establishment and ask the owner what his revenue per square foot is. He'll tell you exactly.

A barbox requires a minimum of 224 square feet and only generates $5 per hour when it's in use. That's $0.02 per square foot when it's in use.

A video game (race car driver, shoot 'em up, etc) requires 15 square feet and generates $3 per hour. That's $0.20 per square foot -- ten times as much as a barbox. I can fit six video games (with plently of aisle space between them) in the 224 square feet required for a barbox. That gives me a $1.20 per square foot compared to $0.02 per square foot for pool. Plus, there's no maintenance and no theft (kids steal "souvenir" billiard balls because it's so easy).

My concession sales are higher with video games since I've got more kids in the same amount of space.

Pool is a tough sell unless the owner has way more square footage than he needs.

bdorman said:

From the standpoint of a business owner, the problem with pool tables in a family entertainment center is the amount of square footage required.

The most basic measure of a retail business is "revenue per square foot." Go into any well run retail establishment and ask the owner what his revenue per square foot is. He'll tell you exactly.

A barbox requires a minimum of 224 square feet and only generates $5 per hour when it's in use. That's $0.02 per square foot when it's in use.

A video game (race car driver, shoot 'em up, etc) requires 15 square feet and generates $3 per hour. That's $0.20 per square foot -- ten times as much as a barbox. I can fit six video games (with plently of aisle space between them) in the 224 square feet required for a barbox. That gives me a $1.20 per square foot compared to $0.02 per square foot for pool. Plus, there's no maintenance and no theft (kids steal "souvenir" billiard balls because it's so easy).

My concession sales are higher with video games since I've got more kids in the same amount of space.

Pool is a tough sell unless the owner has way more square footage than he needs.

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Unless you're in business solely to sell what's on the floor, this is bad math.

Bars sell alcohol and food. Get people in the door, keep them busy and happy, the rest is easy.

bdorman said:

From the standpoint of a business owner, the problem with pool tables in a family entertainment center is the amount of square footage required.

The most basic measure of a retail business is "revenue per square foot." Go into any well run retail establishment and ask the owner what his revenue per square foot is. He'll tell you exactly.

A barbox requires a minimum of 224 square feet and only generates $5 per hour when it's in use. That's $0.02 per square foot when it's in use.

A video game (race car driver, shoot 'em up, etc) requires 15 square feet and generates $3 per hour. That's $0.20 per square foot -- ten times as much as a barbox. I can fit six video games (with plently of aisle space between them) in the 224 square feet required for a barbox. That gives me a $1.20 per square foot compared to $0.02 per square foot for pool. Plus, there's no maintenance and no theft (kids steal "souvenir" billiard balls because it's so easy).

My concession sales are higher with video games since I've got more kids in the same amount of space.

Pool is a tough sell unless the owner has way more square footage than he needs.

Click to expand...

Which is why pool rooms still outnumber arcades. I know when I play league I jack more than $5 an hour into the table. The other night it was $10 that was spent on my match. Couple that with the $10 tab and I spent $15 while I was there.

A pool table in a busy establishment can entertain 4-6 people comfortably and the tab for drinks and food can be north of $100 on top of the table time. Conversely, a good gamer can stay on a machine for $1 for an hour and not consume anything else.

BasementDweller said:

I just got around to watching this video and I found it very interesting. What has always been puzzling to me is why more disgruntled golfers don't find their way to pool. My hunch is the days of the middle class embracing golf are dying. These middle class folks still have competitive desires that need to be satisfied. Pool seems like a natural place for them to migrate. They just need to be targeted in some way. I could see the APA doing some sort of targeting. How about a campaign where if you sign up for our pool league and you bring in a golf club, you will leave with a cue stick?

So many ideas....so little time......and so little money.

As far as professional pool is concerned, I've come to the conclusion that it will never again be "saved" by any one person or organization. I think what's going to happen with many of the niche sports and games throughout the world is that they will grow incrementally as the world continues to become smaller. If you could take all the small groups of pool fanatics that are dispersed throughout the globe and combine them into one large group, what you would end up with is a bunch of nuts that somebody would have to start paying attention to. We are all only a click away from each other and sooner or later we will all be viewed as one large group of potential customers.

Click to expand...

A lot golfers play pool - on days when they aren't golfing. A lot of pool players play golf more than they play pool.

I don't think that it is disgruntled golfers but simply that the golf fad is over. I forget the movie but there was one that featured a particular wine and for the next couple years that was the IT wine. Growers and wineries were in a boom period because of demand skyrocketing. Then when the novelty wore off things returned to normal.

I guess the movie was Sideways http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0375063/combined, Pinot noir was the wine.

Do you think golf is really fading away?