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FranCrimi
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07-13-2019, 09:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
By the way, talking about this has made me think of one possible reason that swooping might make squirt compensation seem a little easier, at least at first.

When the player's bridge length is longer than the cue's squirt pivot length (a relatively high squirt cue), then to apply side spin with the cue angled at the correct squirt adjustment angle the bridge must move slightly sideways - or the tip must swoop a little.

I think learning straight-stroke squirt corrections (with the bridge placed as needed) is the right solution, but I can see this one reason swooping might seem to work.

pj
chgo
That's the first thing I said about swooping. It was believed at the time that it caused less cb squirt.


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07-13-2019, 11:03 AM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
That's the first thing I said about swooping. It was believed at the time that it caused less cb squirt.
Yep, that's what it would look like. Without the swoop the cue angle would be too small at contact, undercorrecting for squirt - swooping would angle the cue more correctly for that amount of squirt, making it look like less. The same thing is usually accomplished with a straight stroke angled a little more (by shortening the bridge or moving it a little sideways).

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07-13-2019, 03:32 PM

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Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Many of the pros who learned back in the 80's use that method.
I'd expect it to be a fading technique with the trend toward low-squirt shafts - with lower squirt cues (and average bridge lengths) swooping does the opposite of what's needed for squirt correction.

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07-15-2019, 05:58 AM

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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
I doubt that it ups anybody's game compared with how they'd play if taught a working straight stroke.

pj
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You may have missed where otherwise good players struggled with offset methods for decades.


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07-15-2019, 06:05 AM

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Originally Posted by sparkle84 View Post
After this, I'm closed for discussion. In order to engage in a back and forth with someone both parties have to be capable of reading and understanding what the other says and then replying in a logical manner.
It appears that this is something you somehow can't comprehend. Every reply you've given to the people questioning your premises (PJ, Bob Jewett and myself) has had nothing to do with what we actually said.
Instead you're off on another tangent, totally unrelated to any points we've attempted to convey.
Case in point is my opening sentence in this post. We'll see if you've listened.
I've replied to you and to all others logically, and patiently. You called an aspect of my teaching "ridiculous" and said above I'm incapable of understanding, and I'm continuing to be logical with you, yet patient.

For example, I did note you said something like "I've swooped 50 years but it introduces variables, so folks shouldn't do it" so my question to you was both respectful and on target. I can rephrase: "Why boast that you've done a technique for decades that you dislike?"


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07-16-2019, 12:25 PM

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Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I've replied to you and to all others logically, and patiently. You called an aspect of my teaching "ridiculous" and said above I'm incapable of understanding, and I'm continuing to be logical with you, yet patient.
For example, I did note you said something like "I've swooped 50 years but it introduces variables, so folks shouldn't do it" so my question to you was both respectful and on target. I can rephrase: "Why boast that you've done a technique for decades that you dislike?"
Your logic is impeccable.
Remember, you're in a poolroom.


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Patrick Johnson
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07-16-2019, 02:14 PM

Coincidentally, Dr. Dave just posted a new video called "Top 10 Billiards Myths Debunked" - swoop-enhanced sidespin is #4.

pj <- I swear I didn't put him up to it
chgo

Name:  top 10.JPG
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Yesterday, 04:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
So, nobody in the top 50 in the world?

Further, while Greenleaf did a fair amount of side-to-side fiddling on his warmups, the side spin shots I've seen in old newsreels on YouTube are pretty straight. Is there some video that shows otherwise?

Also, maybe Efren did something else in the last millennium but lately he seems to address the cue ball where he intends to hit it and comes straight through for side spin shots. Do you have an example video of him doing a swoop on the power stroke?
In '07 at Derby City i made a point of watching ER as much as possible. I noticed two things: on most soft-to-medium spin shots he used a parallel-shift. On some harder/higher-speed spinners he would sometimes use BHE. I never once noticed him swooping in towards the cue-ball. I would say he used parallel-shift 70-75% of the time. Busti plays a lot the same as ER on spinners.
  
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FranCrimi
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Yesterday, 05:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Coincidentally, Dr. Dave just posted a new video called "Top 10 Billiards Myths Debunked" - swoop-enhanced sidespin is #4.

pj <- I swear I didn't put him up to it
chgo

Attachment 524900
Wow. After shooting just a couple of swoop strokes Dave understands the stroke completely and why so many players may have 'mistakenly' used it for a few decades. That's amazing!

As for that miscue --- I'm not surprised that he brought it up. That's what would happen to someone like Dave who never spent a decent amount of time trying to learn the stroke.

That reminds me of the endless elbow-drop discussions here and all the debunkers who never took the time to actually experiment with it and find out when it helps to use it.


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Yesterday, 08:05 AM

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Yesterday, 08:21 AM

[QUOTE=Patrick Johnson;6438310]Coincidentally, Dr. Dave just posted a new video called "Top 10 Billiards Myths Debunked" - swoop-enhanced sidespin is #4.

pj <- I swear I didn't put him up to it
chgo

A good video!

Dr. Dave demonstrated a swoop as "swinging the stroke hand off line". In this thread, I've advocated pronating or supinating the wrist instead (depending on side of english and whether the player is shooting right- or left-handed) to ease the process and all-but-eliminate clumsy miscues. A wrist twist would logically move the tip faster than a hand/arm lateral movement, so that the tip side, not the tip center, makes good cue ball contact.

It's one of those stroke-it-if-you-like it things--for example, some players address follow a bit low than move upwards through the final stroke. Not english but a vertical axis change, but IMHO not every pool stroke needs to be a straight stroke.

I do not condemn swoopers or offsetters. If someone is struggling with one type of stroke, I offer them another type(s).


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Yesterday, 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BilliardsAbout View Post
I've replied to you and to all others logically, and patiently. You called an aspect of my teaching "ridiculous" and said above I'm incapable of understanding, and I'm continuing to be logical with you, yet patient.

For example, I did note you said something like "I've swooped 50 years but it introduces variables, so folks shouldn't do it" so my question to you was both respectful and on target. I can rephrase: "Why boast that you've done a technique for decades that you dislike?"
Let's put my post up here so we're clear on what we're talking about.


"After this, I'm closed for discussion. In order to engage in a back and forth with someone both parties have to be capable of reading and understanding what the other says and then replying in a logical manner.
It appears that this is something you somehow can't comprehend."

In the 1st few sentences (above) I basically say that discussion is pointless due to certain factors. I then continue (below) by giving a verifiable reason for my position.

" Every reply you've given to the people questioning your premises (PJ, Bob Jewett and myself) has had nothing to do with what we actually said.
Instead you're off on another tangent, totally unrelated to any points we've attempted to convey.
Case in point is my opening sentence in this post. We'll see if you've listened."

For a very simple, clear cut example I'd refer you to the posts between you and Mr. Jewett. They are good examples primarily because whenever he questions your premises (on this thread and many others) he almost always does so by asking you a direct question which you invariably fail to answer. He then asks the question again, and again you don't answer. And so on.
The latest in this thread is post 37 where he asks (3 specific questions) and you're off on a tangent (carabao, countless pros, top 50) instead of answering his questions.
His questions arise from previous statements you've made so it logically follows that you might want to answer the question as a means of defending your position.

There are beginner and intermediate players reading this stuff who are trying to learn and we should be very careful to give them the best info possible.
This thread has gotten way off topic as many on here tend to and I'm as much to blame as anyone but when I see (IMO) bad advice being given I'm gonna say something.

More examples:
In post #56 you imply that a swoop stroke causes the side of the tip (instead of the center of the tip) to contact the CB. For heavens sake, look at your own diagrams.
Whenever a tip contacts the outer edge of a CB it always strikes it with the edge as opposed to the middle. It has to because the ball is round. How it got to that point is irrelevant.
I'm questioning your statement and giving reasons why. Would you like to reply?

In post #26 ( despite my lame attempt at humor... the figure 8 stroke) I asked one specific question (why do you say parallel english is not true english) which you never answered. In another post you called it false english. Why?
I then gave my opinion on what factors govern the application of english. You had no reply.
I then gave 2 specific reasons why I would not recommend it. I never boasted about anything or said I dislike it. Perhaps the reason I say to avoid it, is just maybe, I've learned something in 50 years.

I didn't call your teaching methods ridiculous. I was referring to your contention that swooping generates more english while also decreasing the chance of miscue.
I still think it's ridiculous. The overwhelming majority of miscues are stroke related, period. It's my position that a poor stroke is much more likely to occur when using a swoop stroke (due to more variables) than during a straight one.

By the way, in case you haven't checked back I asked you direct questions in this https://forums.azbilliards.com/showt...=496308&page=2 thread also. Hope you get a chance to reply.

My issue is primarily that people ask you direct questions and you never answer them.
  
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