Ivory vs. stainless steel
- Thread starter lilbukka
- Start date
hits verse joints
Dennis Searing told me when you order a cue,make it like it is the last cue you will ever get in life. Lets think about this.all the greats mosconi,caras,crain (irving),lassiter,mizerak,ronnie allen,jersey red,uj pucket,hopkins,eddie taylor,don willis,ed kelly, all used stainlees steel piloted joint,ivory ferules,and shot the lights out. The Skunk.lilbukka said:
cubswin said:
I would be willing to bet you some heavy cash that if I covered the joints on 10 cues and blindfolded you that you'd never be able to tell which had a metal joint and wich had Ivory. There are way to many other things involved in "the hit" of a cue. The shaft (tip/ferrule/taper) has much more to do with the "feel" then the joint ever will.
Jim
JimBo said:I would be willing to bet you some heavy cash that if I covered the joints on 10 cues and blindfolded you that you'd never be able to tell which had a metal joint and wich had Ivory. There are way to many other things involved in "the hit" of a cue. The shaft (tip/ferrule/taper) has much more to do with the "feel" then the joint ever will.
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good point. Its like covering your nose when eating blindfolded. Really hard to tell what you are eating. I personally think that as far as joint material is concerned, the joint and pin "materially affects the weight in that central area which has an effect on where the balance point of the cue will be located. I think many if not most of the cuemakers try to make that joint area as light as possible to correctly balance a cue for a players preference.
JimBo said:
i think there is a misinterpretation of statement here. there is most definitely a difference between SS piloted and ivory piloted/flatface. the feel that one gets from a change of tip or ferrule does not dictate what cubswin was trying to imply. the "solid feel and less feedback" that cubswin was refering to is most directly related to the joint material, as the SS piloted virtually dulls to a thud any feedback to the griphand.
cubswin is ONLY talking about the joint, you are ONLY talking about ferrule/tip. a true test, from cubswin point of view, would be for EVERYTHING about the cue to be the same, save the joint material, so that he can solidify his statement,,, while you are thinking in terms of changing tip and ferrule to camoflauge the joint characteristics. you both can be proven right.
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SS joints
Seem like a lot of today's top player use something other that the SS joint in their cues, not to say all of them but a lot are using NON SS joints in there cues. I feel Eferen is one of today's top players and most recently he has been using a NON SS jointed cue. All in all I think it is up to each individual players as to what he/she personally likes.
know it all said:
Seem like a lot of today's top player use something other that the SS joint in their cues, not to say all of them but a lot are using NON SS joints in there cues. I feel Eferen is one of today's top players and most recently he has been using a NON SS jointed cue. All in all I think it is up to each individual players as to what he/she personally likes.
bruin70 said:
Lucky for you that you changed the part about the bet, I would without doubt take you up on it. The fact is until Bill Stroud comes up with a universal joint there is no human way possible to have the same exact cue. Even when the same maker makes both cues. It's just not an option, so my point stands that the joint really doesn't play as much into the hit as everyone would like to give it credit. This test has already been done a few years back by John McChesney (RIP) when he had the texas express tour. But I will stand behind my point that you'd never be able to tell blindfolded with the cue covered, the joint just does not give that much feedback. Now if we are talking about the joint as a part of the resale or value then you have a different argument.
Jim
drivermaker
Banned
JimBo said:
Yeh, but assuming that the same tip was on both cues and NO BLINDFOLD was used, are you saying that YOU or NO ONE else can tell that there's ZERO difference in hit and feel between SS and Ivory?
The blindfold test never made that much sense to me because our senses are intertwined and work in conjunction with each other. You also couldn't tell which was which if you put ear plugs in either because sound and touch are linked. You could't tell which was which if you placed a glove on your stroking hand to alter your sense of feel. You can't taste if you don't have a sense of smell. So, taking away the vision only means you can't tell because you haven't been blind long enough for your other senses such as hearing and feel to get more acute to make up for the lack of sight.
I'll bet a long time blind person could tell the difference.
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drivermaker said:
I said blindfolded because I think just looking at a cue gives you an edge, sometimes a fancy cue would lead one to believe it were Ivory jointed as apposed to a plane jane. Your sight should have nothing at all to do with hit or feel, sound on the other hand does.
Jim
JimBo said:
i only edited my original post(that i would take that bet with everything the same except the joint) because i realized you two were coming from two different perspectives. if the point is that one can tell the diff between an SS an ivory,,,i would take that bet with parameters stated before. if the point is(by you) that you can change ferrule and tip to alter the feel, then i have no arguement,,,but you both are correct.
as for your reference to that "test": done with rempe and jones.....that was total bullshit,,,as i am sure not only were there many differences from cue to cue that muddled the whole "test", but rempe and jones only played with meucci cues, so that of ALL players, they were the least qualified to test ANYTHING since they only played with a mushy cue, and probably had zero knowledge about anything else. it was a circus act, not a test. just cuz you are a player doesn't mean you know cues. a well known player once said to me a wippy cue like meucci is great to break with because the whip gives the cb snap......now how dumb is that!
as stated in my previous edited post,,,same cuemaker, same woods, same weight, same balance, same shaft(we can use the universal), same ferrule(plastic), same tiple pro or harder(eureka etc), same evrything except the joint. i take a couple of hits with each cue first to understand the cue and cuemaker(a black for instance is totally different from a scruggs), then i do the hit test one by one. and i would take that bet in a nanosecond.
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-----------------bruin70 said:
Theoretically therefore, only a handful of people should be able to tell the difference (if ever) since the experience required is first hand --- with him/her having so many cues with same characteristics except for the joint. I assume of course that most of us play with different cues which is different from the next guy's cue (ferrule, tip, balance etc). Plus the guy should be able to make a decent shot -- maybe a B or A player. If a player has hit with only a few cues in his life and does not play that often, it should be hard to tell.
I mean a person who has mostly hit an ivory jointed cue and a person who does it with an SS joint will have differences in their cues as well (ferrule, tip etc). So how can he definitively say that, "Its the joint."?
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drivermaker
Banned
JimBo said:
Sight in a way does have something to do with feel because we're so reliant on it as well as ALL of our combined senses. It keeps us balanced and evened out. If we didn't have sight for a period of time due to blindness, our sense of feel and hearing would become that much more acute to compensate for the lack of vision and it WOULDN'T make a difference. We could feel or hear it in a second.
However, I have to agree with Bruin's last post. Use the same shaft on different butts made by the same cuemaker that are identical in weight, no difference in looks or identifying marks, same piloted joint but one with SS and the other ivory and shoot with both for one or two days and you'd be able to tell immediately. Put masking tape over both joints while testing and that's it.
Purdman
Banned
JimBo said:
JIMBO, you are on. I don't care what tip, ferrule, who made it, what shaft, weight , or anything else you do. I can tell you the differance between SS and Ivory 100 out of 100 tries. Blindfolded ta boot. And you all wondered what that magnetic decoder ring was made for!!!!!
Purdman
-------------------Donald A. Purdy said:JIMBO, you are on. I don't care what tip, ferrule, who made it, what shaft, weight , or anything else you do. I can tell you the differance between SS and Ivory 100 out of 100 tries. Blindfolded ta boot. And you all wondered what that magnetic decoder ring was made for!!!!!
Purdman
Now it's getting exciting... (fuel the flame, fuel the flame... joke LOL). It would be very interesting to see this if ever this happens. And 100/100 to boot! WOW. I know Don has a lot of experience with both kinds of joints but 100/100 --- well, you guys work the details. I'd just like to see what's going to happen next!!!
I'm with Purdy on this one.
A piloted SS joint compared to ivory is night and day.
Tape it, you'd still feel all that weight in the middle.
You can definitely feel the heavy piloted ss joint.
I hate them.
Now, staghorn joint is another matter. Hagans and Zlyrs.
A piloted SS joint compared to ivory is night and day.
Tape it, you'd still feel all that weight in the middle.
You can definitely feel the heavy piloted ss joint.
I hate them.
Now, staghorn joint is another matter. Hagans and Zlyrs.
drivermaker
Banned
monski said:
Hey there fella...give credit where credit is due!! Don has a lot more experience than with just "both kinds of JOINTS"!!