Scott Frost vs Ronnie Allen in his prime
- Thread starter nineballsafety8
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Scott, I have to correct you here. Fat's beat Richie (Florence) at JC for over 25K. Fats would NOT play Ronnie at the same venue in any year!
I will just say this for the record. I've seen every great One Pocket player of the last 50 years and Ronnie is hands down the best I ever saw play the game. Yes the equipment has changed, but the skills are still similar. Ronnie did things in One Pocket that no one else has been able to duplicate. He usually had to run ten and out, because he rarely made a game where he only went to eight.
Efren is the second best One Pocket player with a very different skill set than Ronnie had. Eddie Taylor may have been their equal but I didn't see enough of him to say one way or another. Taylor probably played Banks as good or better than anyone since.
Scott, I have to correct you here. Fat's beat Richie (Florence) at JC for over 25K. Fats would NOT play Ronnie at the same venue in any year!
I will just say this for the record. I've seen every great One Pocket player of the last 50 years and Ronnie is hands down the best I ever saw play the game. Yes the equipment has changed, but the skills are still similar. Ronnie did things in One Pocket that no one else has been able to duplicate. He usually had to run ten and out, because he rarely made a game where he only went to eight.
Efren is the second best One Pocket player with a very different skill set than Ronnie had. Eddie Taylor may have been their equal but I didn't see enough of him to say one way or another. Taylor probably played Banks as good or better than anyone since.
Thanks for the post Jay. I always enjoy hearing your perspective.
Please take this in the good manner I mean. You are one of the few that has seen the previous generation (Keith Mc, Ronnie, Sercy, etc.) and is still very involved with todays players.
Thanks for your input.
However, watching Efren for years, how Ronnie was better is beyond me. He must have really been something.
Ken
Scott, I have to correct you here. Fat's beat Richie (Florence) at JC for over 25K. Fats would NOT play Ronnie at the same venue in any year!
I will just say this for the record. I've seen every great One Pocket player of the last 50 years and Ronnie is hands down the best I ever saw play the game. Yes the equipment has changed, but the skills are still similar. Ronnie did things in One Pocket that no one else has been able to duplicate. He usually had to run ten and out, because he rarely made a game where he only went to eight.
Efren is the second best One Pocket player with a very different skill set than Ronnie had. Eddie Taylor may have been their equal but I didn't see enough of him to say one way or another. Taylor probably played Banks as good or better than anyone since.
Ronnie and Leonard 'Bugs' Rucker only played 3 times, EVEN! Bugs WON 2 out the 3 matches they played!
the last 6 times (edit especially the last few ) scott and efren played you cant say efren is in his prime
not meant to be a knock on scott
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ulikastr8pool
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Everybody knows you are about as objective at discussing one-pocket players playing Frost as Phil Rizzuto was calling Yankees games for 40 years. I understand you guys are close, so it's natural. But Alex didn't just beat Scott, he drilled him for 20k (if I remember correctly). And all those Efren-Scott matches were not high stakes matches (please correct me if I'm wrong). From what I remember they were for no more than a couple thousand per session. One time Efren traveled all the way to Arizona to play Scott for all of 5k on Scott's home table. When 2 elite players play, the guy with home court has almost a ball advantage (and that set went hill-hill and down to the final ball or 2). Imagine what would happen if Scott travelled to Manilla. I find it hard to believe that Efren wouldn't have been interested in playing Scott for whatever amount he proposed in the past 10 years. Could you picture Scott asking Effie to bet 20k and Effie goes, 'no, how about 2k?'. I could be wrong, but that would only be b/c Efren's game is not nearly the same anymore at 60 yrs old.
This is by no means a knock on Frost's game. He is undoubtedly one of the best
1-holers ever and is liable to beat any great player in their dead prime, at any time.
I wonder what The Cannon's opinion on this match up is.
Bugs is one of the best ever, but was Ronnie in his prime?
Scott, I have to correct you here. Fat's beat Richie (Florence) at JC for over 25K. Fats would NOT play Ronnie at the same venue in any year!
I will just say this for the record. I've seen every great One Pocket player of the last 50 years and Ronnie is hands down the best I ever saw play the game. Yes the equipment has changed, but the skills are still similar. Ronnie did things in One Pocket that no one else has been able to duplicate. He usually had to run ten and out, because he rarely made a game where he only went to eight.
Efren is the second best One Pocket player with a very different skill set than Ronnie had. Eddie Taylor may have been their equal but I didn't see enough of him to say one way or another. Taylor probably played Banks as good or better than anyone since.
Thanks Jay for confirming that for me...I knew Fats could play but not at the same level as Ronnie at least in one pocket. Seems when Richie passed away some time ago people were confusing him with Ronnie as well and you can imagine how that went.
It was in the early to mid 70's when they played, so, I'm sure Ronnie's game was in FULL gear!
And NO one has even mentioned the other player in that league, Artie B from Chicago! IMHO, was the BEST of the 3 for the MONEY playing an 'ahead' race!
Comparing RA to Scott Frost is like night and day. RA game grew out of and thru the great depression era players of the 1900's. His skills at banter, game making, persona and color are the complete package. Ronnie exuded class, excitement and interaction with excellence, and played better the more money on the line, and never folded. That in itself is Very intimidating. Ronnie never thought of quitting pool because of this and that, he was to me during his hey day, the Jack Nicklaus of pool. I don't see that character or class coming from too many of todays greats here in the states. RA supported his family during his prime years.
Somewhere below Efren and a couple of other guys. I put him in a small group of players who are the best today. Shane, Alex, Efren, Gentile, Dennis and Jeremy are all in that same league. Probably Justin Hall too and Shannon if he practices for a week or so. JMHO as always.
Granted Billy, and Ronnie admitted those losses. Bugs was one of the only guys who would play Ronnie even up back then (maybe the ONLY guy!). Ronnie lost to him on his home court in Chicago and also on a gaff table (I think it was in Philly) according to Ronnie. Ronnie won on neutral territory. Bugs would not play Ronnie when he came to California. He stayed in the black poolrooms and would not venture to Ronnie's room in the Valley.
number13cfan
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Jay; Ronnie and Bugs played in Detroit, Bugs beat Ronnie twice there! NO gaff table! Besides, you NEVER really knew what was going on when Ronnie played!
You are wrong about this, I see things for what they are. Efren is the best one pocket player there ever has been but he is no longer and hasn't been since Frost has been beating him for the past 7 years for the money. Over the past 7 years Scott has probably won 20-30k playing Efren even. If you had Scott and Efren in their primes my money is on Efren but Scott could win as his high gear and ball running is obscene, Ronnie ran 8 and out and Scott runs 18 and out.
Alex did beat Scott for 20k but no live streams for the past match ups between the two where Scott beat him. Scott played absolutely terrible and was nowhere near his prime form and Alex had been playing Shane big money one pocket for days so of course there was a huge difference with Alex in dead punch and Scott 2-3 balls under his top speed. Not saying Alex cannot beat Scott in a long race for big money if they both play great because Alex is the best all around player right now.
The real question is why are Alex, Shane and others not playing him even for big cash, Shane wants a ball and Efren plays from $1,000-$5,000 per play and usually quits after losing one set. I know this has drifted from the real question of Ronnie vs Scott in their primes, they did play but Ronnie was far past his prime getting like 10-5 and got heisted. San Jose Dick is the only guy I will trust on this forum because I believe he is one of the few who might still be alive who played them both in their primes for real money.
Okay Ken. Ronnie was the best combination shooter ever! He could make those off angle combos like they were straight in. Ronnie was the most creative One Pocket player ever, finding fantastic shots out of the stack that no one else could see, often having to kick into the stack to make them. He shot shots (and made them) that no one else would shoot at (or even see).
His ability to kick three rails out of traps was a wonder to behold. He could be in a dead trap and turn the game around with an amazing kick shot. Again no one else has these shots or even knows them. I saw it over and over again with my own eyes. He also kicked two long rails more successfully than anyone else ever. Kicking one rail was child's play for him.
Ronnie's ability to move multiple balls toward his pocket was also beyond belief. You thought you had him behind the pack, and he would shoot a ball off the side rail to the end rail and into a cluster of balls. All of a sudden it looked like the table was tilted toward his hole, with all the balls rolling that way. If one of those balls happened to fall in, game over!
Ronnie ran ten and out more than any living human and did it from ungodly spots. Often he had to make four or five miracle shots to continue the run.
The bigger the bet the better he played! If you both needed one ball to win, you were dead. Ronnie's shooting percentage on game ball shots was something like 99%. He just never seemed to miss anything when it was for the match - super thin cut shot, difficult bank shot, it made no difference.
His end game was superb! If you were down to the last three balls, both needing two, he had you!
The last thing Island Drive also touched on. No one was more a master of the conversation than Ronnie, both before, during and after a match. He would compliment an opponent on a fine shot, study the pack for a minute or two, kick a ball in and then run out. He would then explain he had no choice but to go for the awkward kick shot since he was trapped, winking at me on the sidelines.
Ronnie told me more than once, that he won so much money in his life by giving up the nuts and outrunning them. And he did too!
There's probably more but I touched on the highlights. It's no accident that no one wanted to play him even for twenty years with only two exceptions that I know of - Bugs and Marvin Henderson (who also beat Ronnie once and wouldn't give him a rematch).
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Gentile is not in the same league as Frost or the other guys you mentioned, Frost gives Gentile 9/7 and wins. Scott said Dennis asked for 9/7 which is crazy because Dennis plays way too good. You are right about all the other guys being at the top echelon but Justin Hall is not there in one pocket which is why the match with him and Frost never came off after Scott agreed to play him. Danny Smith is an up and comer to keep an eye out on but did beat Jeremy and I believe Darren Appleton too for the cash. Which players would you put in the box vs Frost if you had to pick them for your money?