New Technology LD stiffness

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I've seen this happen with the new LD shafts ALLOT, but never saw this ''at all'' in the pros, until the LD shafts came into being. I'm not saying they are bad or good, but it happens and NEVER did with maple.

This happening for beginning players is a normal occurrence, especially when your starting to draw the ball more than 2- 3 feet. We've all done it, it's part of learning.

A slightly off center hit (draw) of cue ball on even a slow speed hit, causing the shaft to dig under the cue ball causing a jump/miss, happened 3 times during the last few WPBA matches. Also, I saw this allot at the last US Open mens event in VA 2017.

It makes sense, but it also tells me chalking up, tip preparation and all the other basics must be ''more perfect'' with LD shafts to avoid this. Maple tho does bend somewhat, eliminating this type of slow speed miscue.

I haven't done this type of miscue ''at slow speeds'' since I first learned how to play. It seems to come outta ''nowhere'' when a pro does it, but it's actually from them not being 100% ''in the moment''.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
I've seen many folks miscue in exactly this fashion... with all kinds of shafts. Most of the time it's "user" error. They just clipped the table first. They tried to go to low and they missed the cue ball and caught the table first. Shit happens. And it can happen to anyone, at anytime. It's just it happens less with better players, but it still happens. Anyone that has not miscued in this fashion, please raise your hand :)
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I've seen this happen with the new LD shafts ALLOT, but never saw this ''at all'' in the pros, until the LD shafts came into being. I'm not saying they are bad or good, but it happens and NEVER did with maple.

This happening for beginning players is a normal occurrence, especially when your starting to draw the ball more than 2- 3 feet. We've all done it, it's part of learning.

A slightly off center hit (draw) of cue ball on even a slow speed hit, causing the shaft to dig under the cue ball causing a jump/miss, happened 3 times during the last few WPBA matches. Also, I saw this allot at the last US Open mens event in VA 2017.

It makes sense, but it also tells me chalking up, tip preparation and all the other basics must be ''more perfect'' with LD shafts to avoid this. Maple tho does bend somewhat, eliminating this type of slow speed miscue.

I haven't done this type of miscue ''at slow speeds'' since I first learned how to play. It seems to come outta ''nowhere'' when a pro does it, but it's actually from them not being 100% ''in the moment''.
Trying to understand what you're saying...

LD shafts miscue more than non-LD shafts?

Stiffer shafts miscue more than flexible shafts?

More on draw shots than with other spin?

None of that makes sense to me - but I don't know if that's what you're trying to say...

pj
chgo
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've seen this happen with the new LD shafts ALLOT, but never saw this ''at all'' in the pros, until the LD shafts came into being. I'm not saying they are bad or good, but it happens and NEVER did with maple.

This happening for beginning players is a normal occurrence, especially when your starting to draw the ball more than 2- 3 feet. We've all done it, it's part of learning.

A slightly off center hit (draw) of cue ball on even a slow speed hit, causing the shaft to dig under the cue ball causing a jump/miss, happened 3 times during the last few WPBA matches. Also, I saw this allot at the last US Open mens event in VA 2017.

It makes sense, but it also tells me chalking up, tip preparation and all the other basics must be ''more perfect'' with LD shafts to avoid this. Maple tho does bend somewhat, eliminating this type of slow speed miscue.

I haven't done this type of miscue ''at slow speeds'' since I first learned how to play. It seems to come outta ''nowhere'' when a pro does it, but it's actually from them not being 100% ''in the moment''.
Shaft doesn't cause this. Bad tip, bad stroke or a combo but not the shaft.
 

PoolBoy1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Shaft doesn't cause this. Bad tip, bad stroke or a combo but not the shaft.

Yet it is happening evidently. LOL I don't think these players have a bad tip or stroke.
Maybe not adjusting to new material. Also it takes week(s) to months to get the feel for the new shaft. Pool shafts should fit like a glove to the purchaser like instantly like Golf shafts fit from a Pro and computer analyzation. Not from some mail order catalog or Amazon. It's a racket!
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yet it is happening evidently. LOL I don't think these players have a bad tip or stroke.
Maybe not adjusting to new material. Also it takes week(s) to months to get the feel for the new shaft. Pool shafts should fit like a glove to the purchaser like instantly like Golf shafts fit from a Pro and computer analyzation. Not from some mail order catalog or Amazon. It's a racket!
I'm no champion but i have owned multiple LD shafts and have never seen this happen. Never seen it happen with people just test driving one of them either. I've played pool with stiff-as-hell 3c shafts also. Never seen a ball hop/jump on a draw shot. The cue is not causing that to happen.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
LD shafts are not stiff.
They are LIGHTWEIGHT at the front .
They are designed to deflect off the cue ball more than conventional shafts .

I think they miscue more often on balls frozen to the rail where you have to hit the ball high and soft.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... slow speed miscue. ...
Maybe it's because they're using those idiotic, expensive layered tips. Maybe they were playing on one of the layers of glue. Maybe they haven't learned to prepare layered tips properly or often enough.
 

Texdance

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'd have to see the same player make ten or more attempts, at least, and observe the results before I'd assign blame to a shaft. Not hitting that critical spot that produces long draw is a likely cause, next might be lack of chalk or poor chalk, or slick spot on a tip, but using a decent player in a practice atmosphere, and controlling for factors, should produce a series of draw shots with no significant difference no matter the shaft.

My guess is this: because the instant of tip-ball contact is so short, the only significant factors are lack of tip-ball adhesion ((chalk, chalk application, or slick spot on tip), or not hitting the CB where intended (operator error.)

Isn't the design of the LD shafts to produce a light, flexible area at the end of the shaft, creating a shock absorber effect where the shaft will deflect more, allowing the cue ball to deflect less? If the shaft deflects away from the contact point during that small instant of tip-ball contact, would it scoop under the CB on a low draw shot, or just scrub away a bit which, assuming strong tip-ball adhesion, would add more spin.

Meucci first came out in the mid 70s with a shaft that you could bend so far it looked like it should break. I don't remember what Meucci himself claimed for that flexible shaft, but one shortstop who was very proud of his Meucci claimed he could apply more spin than regular shafts of that era. I had a stiff-as-heck steel joint Tad, so I had no experience with flex.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
On the same note...do you find it harder to jump a cue ball with a LD shaft?
Much harder - my ultra low squirt shaft jumps like a short white guy. Predators I've had in the past did too.

What gives...? Who would know something about this...?

pj
chgo

Dr Dave Signal.jpg
 
Last edited:

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
My guess is this: because the instant of tip-ball contact is so short, the only significant factors are lack of tip-ball adhesion ((chalk, chalk application, or slick spot on tip), or not hitting the CB where intended (operator error.)
That's my guess too - mostly operator error.

Isn't the design of the LD shafts to produce a light, flexible area at the end of the shaft, creating a shock absorber effect where the shaft will deflect more, allowing the cue ball to deflect less? If the shaft deflects away from the contact point during that small instant of tip-ball contact, would it scoop under the CB on a low draw shot, or just scrub away a bit which, assuming strong tip-ball adhesion, would add more spin.
LD shafts aren't necessarily more flexible than non-LD shafts - shaft stiffness doesn't determine the amount of squirt; end mass does. As the CB rotates and pushes the tip aside the LD shaft's lower end mass puts up less inertial resistance, reducing the "equal opposite reaction" on the CB.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Maybe it's because they're using those idiotic, expensive layered tips. Maybe they were playing on one of the layers of glue. Maybe they haven't learned to prepare layered tips properly or often enough.

I'm just bringing it up....it's just odd to see it so much in 3 different matches at the end of the womens pro event. When it happens the player is totally surprised. It could easily be the tip, but the women probably use different tips, so.

Hey don't shoot the messenger.

Having played in 2 US Opens in the late 90's finishing 17-24 twice and played in Two WPA events it's just oDD.

It's something I've never seen in the final four of Any mens pro event.

Amp up your swing speed and it becomes more probable.
 
Last edited:

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On the same note...do you find it harder to jump a cue ball with a LD shaft?

Harder? Yes.... but, IMO.... not so much harder that it makes a difference unless it's a very low percentage jump in the first place.

People that use, in the range of high 11mm's and smaller probably experience just that, especiallyif they don't have a real strong stroke.

On the other hand, I can jump just as well..... if not better with my revo break cue or my revo 12.4 shaft than 99% of the people I play with that jump with their "jump cues"..

Then again, I pride myself in my kicking abilities. I have to be able to jump and kick very well simply because I stay out of line more than the average apa 3.

I'm working toward never having to jump or kick again after this coming Thursday.
 

AuntyDan

/* Insert skill here */
Silver Member
Maybe it's because they're using those idiotic, expensive layered tips. Maybe they were playing on one of the layers of glue. Maybe they haven't learned to prepare layered tips properly or often enough.

Don't hold back Bob, tell us how you really feel :) But unless your tip is completely flat (and if it is you have way more problems than paying too much for your tip) you can't ever be playing on an entire layer of glue. Yes, at some points in the life of the tip you will have thin seam of glues that could be in contact with the ball. But then again, isn't that all supposed to be covered with chalk, and you do chalk up on every shot, don't you?

I know I've certainly had this problem myself, starting way back in the day when I was playing with my Neanderthal friends from the cave next door using non-LD shafts, LePro tips and chunks of Masters chalk hewn directly from the rocks we used as pillows. I don't know, perhaps it is some particular magic combination of fancy LD shafts, fancy Revlon chalk, fancy 100-layer tips and fancy virus-infected cue balls that has cursed the modern generation into bunny hopping.

Whatever it is, it has even gotten to the inimitable Allison Fisher, who most would usually cite as a paragon of classical, repeatable pendulum stroke mechanics. Watch her bunny hop the cue ball like a banger at 7:55 in this video from 2018: https://youtu.be/qqBkVUyeWEw?t=476
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Don't hold back Bob, tell us how you really feel :) But unless your tip is completely flat (and if it is you have way more problems than paying too much for your tip) you can't ever be playing on an entire layer of glue. Yes, at some points in the life of the tip you will have thin seam of glues that could be in contact with the ball. But then again, isn't that all supposed to be covered with chalk, and you do chalk up on every shot, don't you?

I know I've certainly had this problem myself, starting way back in the day when I was playing with my Neanderthal friends from the cave next door using non-LD shafts, LePro tips and chunks of Masters chalk hewn directly from the rocks we used as pillows. I don't know, perhaps it is some particular magic combination of fancy LD shafts, fancy Revlon chalk, fancy 100-layer tips and fancy virus-infected cue balls that has cursed the modern generation into bunny hopping.

Whatever it is, it has even gotten to the inimitable Allison Fisher, who most would usually cite as a paragon of classical, repeatable pendulum stroke mechanics. Watch her bunny hop the cue ball like a banger at 7:55 in this video from 2018: https://youtu.be/qqBkVUyeWEw?t=476

Only bangers like her use layered tips.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
Bunny Hop

Dan I like that terminology.

Whatever it is, it has even gotten to the inimitable Allison Fisher, who most would usually cite as a paragon of classical, repeatable pendulum stroke mechanics. Watch her bunny hop the cue ball like a banger at 7:55 in this video from 2018: https://youtu.be/qqBkVUyeWEw?t=476
__________________
Aunty Dan


It's ''out of place'' to see it happen on a normal shot. In the old days, the 13 mm shaft with the perfect grain seemed nearly as stiff. Those were the preferred shafts to own, and the hit was solid and had a nice ''sound''. They did have better wood choices back in the 50's and 60's. The great cue makers around the Balabuska era probably threw out, what many nowadays would use.
At the 2017 US Open, I didn't see the ''bunny hop'' but I did see miscues, as did Bob. When they came up it was just weird to see/hear, as was the expression of the player who just pulled the trigger and missed the moose from 2' away.
 

rbrtjs3

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Agree with OP

I think what OP said makes a lot of sense. The front end of a low deflection shaft is so light that it deflects rather than moving the cue ball off-line. That’s said, it makes sense that if the aiming point is too far to any edge of the cue ball, the LD shaft might deflect off of the cue ball whereas a regular maple shaft might make better contact. I just started shooting with a predator Z2 shaft about three months ago. Before that I used a traditional maple shaft for about the last 40 years. I have a pretty good stroke and I have miscued at least six or eight times in the last few months, whereas with a regular maple shaft I rarely, if ever, miscued. I can’t remember miscuing with a regular shaft in many years. For me the proof is in the pudding. I love the Z2 and I can do things with it that I can’t do with the regular maple shaft - due in large part to the very small diameter - but I’ll have to see if the occasional miscue continues before I know if I’ll be able to stick with it or not.
 
Last edited:
Top