strategy for league match

Interesting strategy. I guess someone's going to Vegas!!!

kaznj said:

Team a leads team b 2-1. B only has 4 players. The fifth play will be there in 30 minutes. B has a good chance of winning the last two matches. A puts up a player to start the match. The match starts and A's player breaks down his cue forfeiting the match. The match is now 2-2. But, since B's player canot get there in time team B must forfeit the match. A wins 3-2.
APA league. This was the post season tournament for Vegas. Semi finals.

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The APA uses a 3 point system now........... so what are the points???

A forfeit is worth 3 points in a playoff match ....

Something doesn't add up in your story

Kim

During APA playoffs, local league rep explained it as first team to reach 3 wins or 8 points.

whammo57 said:

The APA uses a 3 point system now........... so what are the points???

A forfeit is worth 3 points in a playoff match ....

Something doesn't add up in your story

Kim

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Strategically, it's brilliant. A team can have up to 8 members, so getting 5 players to show up shouldn't be an issue. Team A played to their strength, which was simply having enough players to finish the match.

It would depend on the points standing at the end of the 3rd match. The 4th and 5th can be ignored since the it would be 3-0 to the winning team.

Good strategy on part of the team A captain if they was leading in points. But bad sportsmanship though. Anyway sportsmanship goes out of the window when a trip to Vegas is on the line.

That's dirty and I might have lost it if I were there. That was the ultimate form of sandbagging.

kaznj said:

Team a leads team b 2-1. B only has 4 players. The fifth play will be there in 30 minutes. B has a good chance of winning the last two matches. A puts up a player to start the match. The match starts and A's player breaks down his cue forfeiting the match. The match is now 2-2. But, since B's player canot get there in time team B must forfeit the match. A wins 3-2.
APA league. This was the post season tournament for Vegas. Semi finals.

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Saw something similar happen years ago. Team B's player was clearly better and was going to win, but started playing safe rather than shooting out the balls to give his teammate time to arrive. Team A's captain realized what was happening, called time out and told his player just shoot the 8 in early. Team B's player reached the parking lot when the match was forfeited.

This is the epitome of poor sportsmanship.

This is horrible.. If the trip wasn't on the line, would they do the same thing? I think Vegas is the blinders on this, but I would expose this team as much as possible had I witnessed it.

For years APA teams have been using the forfeit as a strategy to avoid that last match match-up of a single game and for other reasons like the one you describe. I don't like it, never have. I have seen it used in local playoffs, in the LTC and in Las Vegas at the NTC,
I have always called it using the rules to cheat. It violates the very spirit of the APA and the APA competition, however, it is within the rules... from a certain perspective.
The rules for the LTC, and the NTC and local weekly play differ a little at some points within the team manual. It's a compelling argument. For instance the team manual says that if you have to forfeit it will only be in the last match. I presented to the APA once that a forfeit in the 4th match would indicate that the forfeiting team wouldn't be playing a 5th match, if we were to follow the rule book. It always seemed to me that these were just logical steps that would follow, ie- one team forfeits the match is over. There were a couple of other things that made an argument but I'd have to dig back into old emails.
Getting back to your original post, IMHO - it's dirty, it's cheap, it's within the rules. There are other things in the APA that need a clean up as well. But the APA admin seems to be in no hurry to take a look at this stuff

i am not sure how you can blame team A. It is within rules and they are utilizing an opportunity to advance to the next round. If there is anyone to blame it would have to be the missing 4 guys in team B. In an important tournament with a trip to Vegas on the line how can you NOT show up on time. But it is just me.

Like Herm Edwards said.."We play to win the Game" (without cheating..sportsmanship or not)

Celophanewrap said:

For years APA teams have been using the forfeit as a strategy to avoid that last match match-up of a single game and for other reasons like the one you describe. I don't like it, never have. I have seen it used in local playoffs, in the LTC and in Las Vegas at the NTC,
I have always called it using the rules to cheat. It violates the very spirit of the APA and the APA competition, however, it is within the rules... from a certain perspective.
The rules for the LTC, and the NTC and local weekly play differ a little at some points within the team manual. It's a compelling argument. For instance the team manual says that if you have to forfeit it will only be in the last match. I presented to the APA once that a forfeit in the 4th match would indicate that the forfeiting team wouldn't be playing a 5th match, if we were to follow the rule book. It always seemed to me that these were just logical steps that would follow, ie- one team forfeits the match is over. There were a couple of other things that made an argument but I'd have to dig back into old emails.
Getting back to your original post, IMHO - it's dirty, it's cheap, it's within the rules. There are other things in the APA that need a clean up as well. But the APA admin seems to be in no hurry to take a look at this stuff

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Not understanding their own rules is the reason I don't play APA anymore. I agree with your entire post, if you forfeit a match you should have to forfeit remaining matches.


f. If a team finds it necessary to forfeit, the forfeit(s) must be the last
match(es).

h. Deliberate forfeits will not be tolerated. If the League Operator/Board
of Governors is satisfied that the receiving team conspired to receive
deliberate forfeit points, then the points would not be counted.

The new 3 point APA scoring system wouldn't change this situation. If team A had the lead after 3 matches, it would still preserve the lead through this strategy. I think this is why, our team (and most other teams) do not reveal ANY team roster information during a match -especially during playoffs. This would include who's there, who's playing, who's not, when are they arriving, etc... I think the goal is to convince the other team that you have all 8 players ready, available, and willing to play, and let them plan accordingly.

However, IIRC, team B does have 15 minutes from the end of the previous match to begin the next match. So I would have loved to see the fifth player from team B, stroll in 14 minutes after the guy from team A broke down his cue.

Need to know the points. Can lose 3 matches and still win 7, 8 or 9 to 6.

kaznj said:

I would like to see some more responses before i tell a twist to the whole thing.

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1. I've never seen this happen, but I've always recognized the risk. What would make it funny is if Team B's player was in the parking lot/bathroom/back room, etc. That's why, when I'm short-handed, I always make it very clear to my whole team to not reveal that. "Bill's sleeping one off in the car" usually works.

2. I did do a variant of this once in Vegas, and I thought it was brilliant, if I say so myself. We're up 2-1 after three matches and we put our 4 on their 7. That leaves me against their 5 or 6 (I forget which) in the last match. We had plenty of time for the entire match remaining. However, it quickly becomes clear that their 7 is stalling to force match 5 (me vs. their 5 or 6) to be a sudden death match. That was a smart move on their part, I think: I don't lose to a lot of legitimate 5s and 6s because the spot isn't all that big. So, I did a quick check with a ref, called a time out, and told my 4 to break down his stick and congratulate his opponent. Then I go on to a nice leisurely win.

That was the year we finished in 17-32, my best year in Vegas ever. We would have done better, but Eric, who posts here regularly, beat me.

Cory

Regarding the forfeiture of the last match only, I think semantics calls the breaking down of a cue during play a concession rather than forfeit. Thus, the rule's intent seems to be upheld. I also think it's written that only the last match may be forfeited to avoid a strategic forfeiture of a team only having 4 players as a response to a stronger player in an early match (as in, game 2 sees Team A put up an unbeatable 7, and team B says they'll take their forfeit for game 2).

Either way, sure... it's a chickenchit way to win, but it's within the rules as currently written and applied. I still put the ownership of the loss on the missing members.

A few years ago there was a team on the cusp of a Vegas trip, with the match tied at 2-2 and the players hill-hill playing 8 ball. The player broke and made a ball, then missed. All seemed lost... and then the opponent shot in the remaining 6 balls of the group the first player had made. Before the second player got a shot off on a routine 8 ball (at that time, it was no foul if they got to the 8 and made a legal shot IIRC), the first player called foul on the second for shooting the wrong group, received ball in hand, and tapped in the 8 for a Vegas trip. Again, chickenchit and anger inducing... but not wrong. A whole team watched their player shoot the wrong balls and either didn't notice or said nothing, so who's ultimately more responsible?

WoodyMPW said:

Need to know the points. Can lose 3 matches and still win 7, 8 or 9 to 6.

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...how do you lose 3 matches and still win (7, 8, or 9) to 6 ????

Cory in DC said:

1. I've never seen this happen, but I've always recognized the risk. What would make it funny is if Team B's player was in the parking lot/bathroom/back room, etc. That's why, when I'm short-handed, I always make it very clear to my whole team to not reveal that. "Bill's sleeping one off in the car" usually works.

2. I did do a variant of this once in Vegas, and I thought it was brilliant, if I say so myself. We're up 2-1 after three matches and we put our 4 on their 7. That leaves me against their 5 or 6 (I forget which) in the last match. We had plenty of time for the entire match remaining. However, it quickly becomes clear that their 7 is stalling to force match 5 (me vs. their 5 or 6) to be a sudden death match. That was a smart move on their part, I think: I don't lose to a lot of legitimate 5s and 6s because the spot isn't all that big. So, I did a quick check with a ref, called a time out, and told my 4 to break down his stick and congratulate his opponent. Then I go on to a nice leisurely win.

That was the year we finished in 17-32, my best year in Vegas ever. We would have done better, but Eric, who posts hear regularly, beat me.

Cory

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I think this is why in APA tournaments, most teams try to leave their highest SLs for the last match. Even without any intentional stalling, it's very easy for the matches to go very long and leave the last match as sudden death.