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10-21-2019, 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy View Post
It’s not always a double hit on a scoop, and sometimes it is. You can usually feel
It or hear it. Occasionally it’s not possible to determine.
Fatboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
When you hear or feel the double hit it is sporting to call the foul on yourself.
Hu
I know exactly what you two guys are talking about, but I had a hard time trying to find the words to describe how the double hit miscue and a non-double hit miscue differ in sound. Describing the way a double hit miscue "feels" also eluded me.

I can tell when I've double hit a cue ball, but in my mind I cannot seem to come up with a way to describe it.

You guys want to try and describe it?

Maniac


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Smile Thaks - 10-21-2019, 11:45 AM

Thanks to all of you who responded to this topic. Once again we have a difference in opinions on a pool topic. What I believe.

My stroke causes most of the miscues I have had.
It will be easier to call a foul on myself then an opponent.

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10-21-2019, 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCity View Post
I posted that above. But apparently Im speaking goddamn chinese.
You aren't goddamn Chinese? Wtf?!
  
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10-21-2019, 12:19 PM

I think it's really gonna depend on which set of rules you're playing by, but I do believe
that most sets of rules allow for an unintentional miscue as long as the what happens
after is rule compliant. In most cases, by any set of rules I'm pretty sure that intentional
scooping is not a legal shot and you could go to pool jail
  
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10-21-2019, 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCity View Post
Uh no its not, an intentional scoop is a foul, miscuing when trying to draw the ball as noted in the OP is rarely a foul.
I've played in a few places that say "all" miscues are fouls regardless if the cue ball makes contact with ob or not.

Then again, I play in other places that don't consider a miscue a foul as long as the cb doesn't leave table and also makes contact with ob and a rail if playing BIH.

I don't mind playing either way.

When playing cheap sets, most of the people I play very, very seldom miss position, much less miscue.

I never worry about an opponent's miscues unless they do it at a time where it would benefit them (no ball in hand....to keep from hitting a ball or such). Even then, I don't worry about it unless they do it often.

In the end, a miscue, in my experience almost always means BIH because more times than not, the cb either doesn't hit the ob/rail or it leaves the table.

But to say a miscue is automatically a foul is a little to scientific to me because I believe one can cause the cb to leave the surface without ferrule touching the cb when using extreme bottom and a choppy/elevated stroke combined with enough stroke speed.

Jeff


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10-21-2019, 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Dave View Post
It doesn't matter if it's a double hit or not, a "scoop jump" is always a foul, ergo ball in hand for you opponent.
As others have pointed out, this is not true unless the scoop is intentional (e.g., to illegally clear over an blocking opponent ball).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Dave View Post
Dr. Dave's video's have shown you can scoop with and without a double hit
For those interested, the video and surrounding discussion can be found on the illegal scoop jump shot resource page. Here's a direct link to the pertinent video:

HSV B.2 – Illegal “scoop” jump shots

Regards,
Dave
  
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10-21-2019, 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniac View Post
I know exactly what you two guys are talking about, but I had a hard time trying to find the words to describe how the double hit miscue and a non-double hit miscue differ in sound. Describing the way a double hit miscue "feels" also eluded me.

I can tell when I've double hit a cue ball, but in my mind I cannot seem to come up with a way to describe it.

You guys want to try and describe it?

Maniac
I can’t-just don’t have the words.

It’s clear when it happens and can feel the double hit for sure. And as Hu and I mentioned you should call the foul on yourself-no exception.

Sorry can’t do better then that. Experience is the best teacher.

Best
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10-21-2019, 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Definitions

8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
Based on what I have seen in lots of slo-mo video, most (not just some) miscues involve secondary contact. Regardless, they are not considered fouls unless the secondary contact is visually obvious. Sometimes the sound of a miscue seems to imply obvious secondary shaft contact (wood slapping sound), but that is not sufficient evidence. For those interested, lots of examples of miscues in slow motion can be found here:

HSV B.36 – Various miscues with double-hit rule interpretation

And examples where miscues are visually obvious or "intentional" (possibly resulting in an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty) can be found here:

miscue fouls resource page

Enjoy,
Dave
  
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10-21-2019, 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
As others have pointed out, this is not true unless the scoop is intentional (e.g., to illegally clear over an blocking opponent ball).

For those interested, the video and surrounding discussion can be found on the illegal scoop jump shot resource page. Here's a direct link to the pertinent video:

HSV B.2 – Illegal “scoop” jump shots

Regards,
Dave
I hate it when I ‘scop’ a ball....and it’s not covered in your video......


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10-21-2019, 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCity View Post
I posted that above. But apparently Im speaking goddamn chinese.
Try buddhadamn chinese next time.


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10-21-2019, 12:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
You aren't goddamn Chinese? Wtf?!
I always figured his real name was 河城.

As for the OP, in all of the written-down, formal rulesets I know of, an unintentional miscue is not by itself a foul, as others have mentioned. A small exception is mentioned above: a miscue on a jump shot is sometimes automatically considered to be intentional and therefor a foul. That seems like a hard rule to apply. Sometimes you get a sort of partial miscue, and often a jump shot with a phenolic tip sounds like a miscue (and maybe is).

I used to occasionally miscue over the cue ball when it was frozen to the cushion. Sometimes my cue stick would stop on top of the cue ball with the cue ball sitting there a short distance from the cushion trapped under the stick. We usually called this a foul. I haven't done that for a decade or two.


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10-21-2019, 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I always figured his real name was 河城.

As for the OP, in all of the written-down, formal rulesets I know of, an unintentional miscue is not by itself a foul, as others have mentioned. A small exception is mentioned above: a miscue on a jump shot is sometimes automatically considered to be intentional and therefor a foul. That seems like a hard rule to apply. Sometimes you get a sort of partial miscue, and often a jump shot with a phenolic tip sounds like a miscue (and maybe is).

I used to occasionally miscue over the cue ball when it was frozen to the cushion. Sometimes my cue stick would stop on top of the cue ball with the cue ball sitting there a short distance from the cushion trapped under the stick. We usually called this a foul. I haven't done that for a decade or two.
What is your tried and true remedy?


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10-21-2019, 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyco View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Jewett View Post
I used to occasionally miscue over the cue ball when it was frozen to the cushion. Sometimes my cue stick would stop on top of the cue ball with the cue ball sitting there a short distance from the cushion trapped under the stick. We usually called this a foul. I haven't done that for a decade or two.
What is your tried and true remedy?
I had this issue in the past also. My solution was to be very careful to not drop my elbow (which I had a tendency to do) on shots like this.

Regards,
Dave
  
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10-21-2019, 01:08 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
I had this issue in the past also. My solution was to be very careful to not drop my elbow (which I had a tendency to do) on shots like this.
In fact, there are several types of shots where "dropping my elbow" (which I always tended to do naturally) has caused problems for me. The message I learned is: Keep My Elbow Frickin' Elbow ... on any shot. Unfortunately, I still need to give myself constant reminders with certain types of shots (elevated shots, long follow shots, draw shots).

Regards,
Dave

PS: For those interested, reasons to keep the elbow still can be found on the elbow drop resource page.

Last edited by dr_dave; 10-21-2019 at 01:10 PM.
  
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10-21-2019, 01:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_dave View Post
I had this issue in the past also. My solution was to be very careful to not drop my elbow (which I had a tendency to do) on shots like this.

Regards,
Dave
As you show in this video, multiple hits can be unavoidable when you need to hit the top of the CB with an elevated cue.

pj
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