Go Back   AzBilliards.com > Main Category > Main Forum
Reload this Page Scopping cue ball foul?
Reply
Page 1 of 4 1 23 Last »
 
Share Thread Tools Rate Thread
Scopping cue ball foul?
Old
  (#1)
AkGuy
AzB Silver Member
AkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 116
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2019
   
Question Scopping cue ball foul? - 10-20-2019, 11:16 PM

Once again I was stretched out for a draw shot with to long of a bridge and I hit so low on the cue ball with my sorry stroke it jumped over the ball I was aiming at. I told my friend he had ball in hand as there was no way I didn't double hit the cue ball.

I don't think it is possible to do that shot without double hitting the cue ball. What do you guys say?
  
Reply With Quote

Old
  (#2)
pwd72s
recreational banger
pwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond reputepwd72s has a reputation beyond repute
 
pwd72s's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,938
vCash: 500
iTrader: 2 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Linn County, OR
   
10-20-2019, 11:19 PM

I'd call that a miscue. Is a miscue a foul?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
Fatboy
AzB Silver Member
Fatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,250
vCash: 2400
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2006
   
10-20-2019, 11:19 PM

Practice your stroke

Usually when you double hit the CB on a scoop you can feel it and should call the foul on yourself.

It’s not always a double hit on a scoop, and sometimes it is. You can usually feel
It or hear it. Occasionally it’s not possible to determine.

Good luck
Fatboy


OG member of the Lock Society members or OG-LS;

Just call me Fat-Lock

im getting old and sloppy....
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
Fatboy
AzB Silver Member
Fatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond reputeFatboy has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 15,250
vCash: 2400
iTrader: 16 / 100%
Join Date: Nov 2006
   
10-20-2019, 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by pwd72s View Post
I'd call that a miscue. Is a miscue a foul?
Depends on where the CB goes after the bad contact.


OG member of the Lock Society members or OG-LS;

Just call me Fat-Lock

im getting old and sloppy....
  
Reply With Quote
How bout...
Old
  (#5)
AkGuy
AzB Silver Member
AkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond reputeAkGuy has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 116
vCash: 500
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Apr 2019
   
How bout... - 10-20-2019, 11:48 PM

Lets look at it this way then. If your shaft is almost flat on the table how is it possible to get the tip under the cue ball and lift the cue ball up and over another ball with out running the tip under the cue ball after the initial contact?

I have tried and can't do it, the cue ball rolls off of the tip every time, unless I intentionally try to scoop it and when I do, I am contacting the cue ball more then once.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
Double-Dave
Developing cue-addict
Double-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond reputeDouble-Dave has a reputation beyond repute
 
Double-Dave's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 3,385
vCash: 5795
iTrader: 104 / 100%
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Netherlands
   
10-21-2019, 12:15 AM

It doesn't matter if it's a double hit or not, a "scoop jump" is always a foul, ergo ball in hand for you opponent.

Dr. Dave's video's have shown you can scoop with and without a double hit, but again for the resulting penalty it does not matter.

If scooping is done intentionally (this does not seem to be the case here) then it becomes unsportsmanlike conduct and can even mean you're thrown out of the tournament.

Regards, Dave


Playing cue: Cuechanger cocobolo
Break + jump cue: Cuechanger
Case: Sterling wave 4x8
League: NPB Superleague + Top Pool League TPL1 + DBA Topleague
Hours play: 8-10 per week

www.doubledavecues.com
www.budgetstukadoor.nl
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
RiverCity
~Chuck Fields~
RiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond repute
 
RiverCity's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,772
vCash: 500
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Center Table
   
10-21-2019, 01:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Dave View Post
It doesn't matter if it's a double hit or not, a "scoop jump" is always a foul, ergo ball in hand for you opponent.

Regards, Dave
Uh no its not, an intentional scoop is a foul, miscuing when trying to draw the ball as noted in the OP is rarely a foul.


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

Player: Schmelke Purpleheart into Ebony Fullsplice
Breaker: Poison
Case: JB Cases


  
Reply With Quote
seldom applied rules
Old
  (#8)
ShootingArts
Smorg is giving the 7!
ShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond reputeShootingArts has a reputation beyond repute
 
ShootingArts's Avatar
 
Status: Online
Posts: 11,750
vCash: 2900
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South of the Border
   
seldom applied rules - 10-21-2019, 03:01 AM

Some rules are seldom applied. Most rulebooks say that a miscue is a foul in itself, any miscue. Rarely do I see anyone claim ball in hand for a typical miscue. Scooping the ball, intentionally or not, is generally a foul. Like a miscue, fairly rarely called. When you hear or feel the double hit it is sporting to call the foul on yourself.

Sounds like you need to practice with a bridge. If the place you play doesn't have one, buy one of the cheap plastic slip-on heads to put on a house cue. Kinder to grab a house cue already missing a tip as these bridge heads tend to remove tips. Might buy two or three of those plastic moosehead style bridge heads at once, they are cheap and sooner or later you leave them behind!

This isn't intended as a knock, more the voice of experience. I was once very bad about stretching too far and hated using the bridge. Scooped more than a few cue balls accidentally myself. Learning to shoot left handed and behind my back cut down on the use of the bridge but I put in practice sessions using the bridge every shot just to get used to it.

Hu
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
jrctherake
AzB Silver Member
jrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond reputejrctherake has a reputation beyond repute
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 2,353
vCash: 500
iTrader: 1 / 100%
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: At the table
   
10-21-2019, 03:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootingArts View Post
Some rules are seldom applied. Most rulebooks say that a miscue is a foul in itself, any miscue. Rarely do I see anyone claim ball in hand for a typical miscue. Scooping the ball, intentionally or not, is generally a foul. Like a miscue, fairly rarely called. When you hear or feel the double hit it is sporting to call the foul on yourself.

Sounds like you need to practice with a bridge. If the place you play doesn't have one, buy one of the cheap plastic slip-on heads to put on a house cue. Kinder to grab a house cue already missing a tip as these bridge heads tend to remove tips. Might buy two or three of those plastic moosehead style bridge heads at once, they are cheap and sooner or later you leave them behind!

This isn't intended as a knock, more the voice of experience. I was once very bad about stretching too far and hated using the bridge. Scooped more than a few cue balls accidentally myself. Learning to shoot left handed and behind my back cut down on the use of the bridge but I put in practice sessions using the bridge every shot just to get used to it.

Hu
All good advice.

OP,

Don't forget about extensions. Especially really long butt extensions that are for one-n-done shots.

You can purchase them online or like myself and many othrrs, have a cue guy custom make you one...or two...... or three......or four......or five ...., be careful, lol..... before you know it, you'll have a basket full of them for assorted cues at different lengths.

Jeff


I knew a fellow that thought he was a good boxer because he was in a position to befriend a lot of "professional boxers". It cost him azzwhippens till he realized he wasn't what he thought/wished he was.

Do you know anyone like the "wannabe" boxer in the pool world?
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
Black-Balled
He Rides the Skies
Black-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond repute
 
Black-Balled's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 39,778
vCash: 1200
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: This Toilet Earth
  Send a message via AIM to Black-Balled  
10-21-2019, 04:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverCity View Post
Uh no its not, an intentional scoop is a foul, miscuing when trying to draw the ball as noted in the OP is rarely a foul.
Clarification: rarely called foul.

IIRC, daver doc has shared vid that evidences miscues have both tip and ferrule contact.
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#11)
RiverCity
~Chuck Fields~
RiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond repute
 
RiverCity's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,772
vCash: 500
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Center Table
   
10-21-2019, 04:16 AM

The ferrule does not always hit the cb.

WPA rules
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/

Quote:
8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
BCA rules
https://bca-pool.com/general/custom.asp?page=55

Quote:
3.27 JUMP SHOTS
Unless otherwise stated in rules for a specific game it is legal to cause the cue ball to rise off the bed of the table by elevating the cue stick on the shot, and forcing the cue ball to rebound from the bed of the table. Any miscue when executing a jump shot is a foul.
APA rules dont even have the word miscue in there.
http://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Ru...et-English.pdf

TAP rules
https://tapleague.com/files/pdfs/8ba...DblsRules1.pdf

Quote:
Miscue – This occurs when the tip of a cue stick slides off the cue ball because of inadequate chalking, a defective tip, or misapplication of “English.” A miscue could lead to a ball-in-hand situation for your opponent, especially if the miscue causes the cue ball to jump over any balls on the table
Please, someone show me where a miscue is an automatic foul.


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

Player: Schmelke Purpleheart into Ebony Fullsplice
Breaker: Poison
Case: JB Cases


  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
Black-Balled
He Rides the Skies
Black-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond reputeBlack-Balled has a reputation beyond repute
 
Black-Balled's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 39,778
vCash: 1200
iTrader: 14 / 100%
Blog Entries: 1
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: This Toilet Earth
  Send a message via AIM to Black-Balled  
10-21-2019, 04:34 AM

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/miscue/


With most miscues, the tip slides along the cue ball, and the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft make secondary contact with the cue ball. The secondary contacts might partially explain the slapping sound you hear with a miscue. Normally, multiple hits on the cue ball results in a foul; but in case of a miscue, the multiple hits are not considered a foul under the current rules (unless the miscue is judged as “intentional”). For more information, see “Rules – Part V: miscellaneous fouls” (BD, December, 2009) and:
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
RiverCity
~Chuck Fields~
RiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond repute
 
RiverCity's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,772
vCash: 500
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Center Table
   
10-21-2019, 04:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black-Balled View Post
https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/foul/miscue/


With most miscues, the tip slides along the cue ball, and the tip, ferrule, and/or shaft make secondary contact with the cue ball. The secondary contacts might partially explain the slapping sound you hear with a miscue. Normally, multiple hits on the cue ball results in a foul; but in case of a miscue, the multiple hits are not considered a foul under the current rules (unless the miscue is judged as “intentional”). For more information, see “Rules – Part V: miscellaneous fouls” (BD, December, 2009) and:
If you stroke too low, hitting the cloth before the ball, and the tip hits the ball on the upwards rebound (as in trying to hit too low to draw the ball), there is no ferrule contact.

Even on the video Dr Dave posted showing an "elevated draw", there is no ferrule contact with the ball.
https://youtu.be/k-WOjAmlH9w

And there is no foul. Unless of course, you are intentionally trying to jump the ball with a scoop/miscue.


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

Player: Schmelke Purpleheart into Ebony Fullsplice
Breaker: Poison
Case: JB Cases


  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
Patrick Johnson
Fish of the Day
Patrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond reputePatrick Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
 
Patrick Johnson's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 20,371
vCash: 1700
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Join Date: Jun 2007
   
10-21-2019, 04:50 AM

https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Definitions

8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
  
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
RiverCity
~Chuck Fields~
RiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond reputeRiverCity has a reputation beyond repute
 
RiverCity's Avatar
 
Status: Offline
Posts: 5,772
vCash: 500
iTrader: 32 / 100%
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Center Table
   
10-21-2019, 04:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#Definitions

8.18 Miscue

A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.17 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).

I posted that above. But apparently Im speaking goddamn chinese.


I don't like making plans for the day, because then the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.

Player: Schmelke Purpleheart into Ebony Fullsplice
Breaker: Poison
Case: JB Cases


  
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 1 of 4 1 23 Last »

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.